303 · Super C

• Shooting first and forget about the questions
• NES Longplay
• Manual
• They don’t make back of the boxes like THAT anymore
• Super C, did you know it was gonna be Contra?
• How did they change the contra formula?
  • At first I felt less verticality in the stages?
    • Which means the scale feels smaller. Graphics are the same size, but you feel smaller
    • But actually - there are slopes that weren’t in the first that do make later levels more scalable…at the expense of enemies being more of a nuisance.
  • Lots of enemy traps if not cleared fast enough
• The descent to alien
  • Any other games do descent to madness or extreme well?
    • Mass Effect 2 lackluster ending
    • Alan Wake
• In the original Contra, there were a couple of stages that were an over the shoulder style level faking 3d. This time, the game changes things up a bit by giving players a birds-eye-view for the game’s second stage.
  • I’m not a fan of this change
• The NES version uses the same power-ups as the original NES game, but changes the function of the "fire ball" power-up from a gun that fires small fireballs that travel in a corkscrew pattern to a large projectile that spreads fire after hitting its target.
• Theres a jump in area 5 that requires you to know to jump to scroll the screen upwards to release a purple ball that would kill you…
• Three stages unique to the NES version: a high-tech base, a mountain and an alien nest, all vertically-scrolling stages
• The Konami Code from the original Contra was not included in this game.
  • To make matters worse, in Super C, when you run out of lives, you can only continue a total of three times before you see the dreaded “game over”. BRUTAL.
• The essential need for 2 players
• Contra is a classic. Contra III, is very well regarded. Super C, seems less talked about. Are there other franchises where the second game is “under the radar”?
  • Crash 2?
  • SMB 2
• Sequels and Spinoffs
  • For its original Japanese release, this game was called: Super Contra – The Alien Strikes Back.
  • Probotector II: Return of the Evil Forces
• EGL
• Next week -
• NEStalgia Byte - Honoo no Doukyuuji: Dodge Danpei
  • (HOE-NO NO MICHI-KOJI DODGE DEN-PIE)

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Super C, Shooting First and Forget About the Questions.

00:19 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. I really like that. Yeah, they don't make back of the boxes like that anymore. That's like truly badass. I had a very small issue with it. And I think it's very badass, but shooting first and what was it? Don't. And forget about the questions. Forget about the questions. I feel like it should either be shoot first and forget about the questions or shooting first and forgetting about the questions.

00:54 But to mix them like that is, it felt weird. Sure, but it's also probably like, you know. How badass do I sound right now? Right, right. I think like they actually were trying to weed out people like you who cared about that kind of stuff because they just knew that like, oh, well, if he cares about that, he's going to care a lot more about the, he's probably going to make a whole like 60 minute podcast about this someday. Yeah. I got to get over to like Sesame Street ABC or something. This is not my game. So Super C, the C is for Contra. Did you guys know it was going to be Contra?

01:26 Only because you told me. I did not know. Um, and I don't think that like at this point, I mean, maybe I don't know how long after the arcade games just came out. And maybe that like, that means that they think they can get away with that. But if just going by what I know about Contra and trying to put myself in to a 1990 shoes, I wouldn't have known, you know, like Mortal Kombat can just be called like MK11. But that's because it's been going on for so long. I think this is a little early to try and like, give yourself shorthand. Yeah, you can't take over the whole letter C. Mm hmm. Yeah, that too.

02:06 But I have on multiple occasions been like Super C. I wonder what that is. And then looked it up and been like, oh, it's Contra. And then I just do it again and again every time. So so I've I don't know. I keep wiping my memory of it. The funny thing, Sean, is that, you know, this is made by Konami, a Japanese company. And for the original Japanese release of this game, it was called Super Contra. The alien strikes back. So not only did they cut the Entra to just make it Super C, but they also cut the subtitle, the alien strikes back, which I think is a fun nod to like the Empire Strikes Back and alien movies and all that. So like, why not? Yeah.

02:46 But instead, we got Super C. And honestly, I think, you know, there's not if you played Contra, I don't think it's it's like it takes a while for this to click. I think you realize at the start of the game that you're now in a Contra game, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, even just the the typeface of the C is like, oh, it's Contra. So how did they change the Contra formula in this game? Or did they change the Contra formula?

03:13 Well, remind me in the original Contra, remember those those forward levels where you're like running into the screen as best as they could simulate. But were there actual vertical scrolling levels? I don't think so. I didn't think so either. What do you mean by vertical scrolling levels? Well, like, so there's like, um, commando type levels. Oh, yeah. No, those were not right overhead top down. Right. Yeah. Top down. But you are but you are moving vertically.

03:44 You know? Yeah, I was gonna say that there's definitely verticality in the stages of both these games. But yes, that top down is the new replacement for the pseudo 3D the kind of over the shoulder. But realistically, if the NES games, it was more like over the character style 3D games that the NES was capable of. That's what the first Contra had this this Super C introduced these top down levels that, you know, I guess provide a little bit more of a shmup feeling to them, but also more of a commando feeling to them.

04:21 You know, let's start there. Did you miss the pseudo 3D stages or was this a welcome improvement? Yeah, I actually do think it was a bit of an improvement. I did like the, uh, the novelty of the over the shoulder sections in the first one. But I think here like they're using much more like of a tried and true, uh, method of switching up the switching up the gameplay style. I know that that actually kind of makes it sound a bit more boring, but it, it felt, it still felt like a refreshing change from level to level.

04:57 Yeah, when I was, uh, playing, I, I felt similarly. I, I enjoy this style of game better than the, uh, that over the shoulder style in the first game. But it wasn't really until this conversation right now that I did start to sort of miss that a little bit. Not that I would want it to replace these, these levels, but it was kind of cool. Cause it was, it was more of a gameplay change up where it was like, it felt a little more like a bonus level or like an arcade sort of like test your skill moment. Cause you had to like take out those enemies, protect yourself, and then it would just kind of progress you.

05:31 Um, I don't know. I, I definitely think this is an improvement, but I wouldn't have hated having those in here too, as like little, little segues between levels. Yeah, Joe, I think you're right, uh, about missing them because this is an improvement in the control category. It's much easier, um, to control top down, not only because we're familiar with it in other video games, but also just in the contrast scheme of things, the way, you know, run and gun games work. It's like, it, it changes it, it changes the formulas this way. The stages don't get stale, but it also is like the same kind of combat mechanics and thinking.

06:08 Whereas the pseudo 3d stages in the, uh, first game were maybe a little more, uh, you know, aiming was a little more difficult than it needed to be. And, uh, maybe like just NES graphics aside, like awareness of what was going on and how many things were coming at you was also kind of hard. All that to say that I really did like those stages. And I, and so, yeah, I would agree. I miss them here.

06:30 I don't, I don't see why you couldn't have included it even as just a bonus stage, a fun thing to collect an additional life or something. I think something that's sorely needed in a game as difficult as this, but, uh, con soup, uh, contra three, uh, on the super Nintendo will, will kind of like work off of that top down, uh, format and also, you know, take the mode seven instead of the fake 3d over the shoulder.

06:54 It'll use mode seven with the top down. One thing I liked about, uh, I guess just the philosophy of, of trying to change things up is that even when it goes back to, you know, the standard sort of side scrolling elements, uh, like the, the default movement method, like each level is still unique and it, it, it's never like outlasting. It's welcome.

07:18 It, it kind of feels like this game is just like, uh, I shut up and play the hits sort of thing. Like there's no filler. Like there's a vertical like elevator level. And then there's one where it's a bunch of like, uh, going up hills and you got to jump over chasms. And then there's like the, the, the levels where you're in like more of like a, a lab and there's like little set pieces that aren't actually bosses. Like that's a, there's a lot going on. It's never just moved to the right and jump once in a while.

07:51 Yeah. Each, each portion of each level feels very deliberately and distinctly designed. As someone who really enjoys the first Contra game, uh, that, that game, the way it starts, uh, automatically like throws you into all different kinds of platforming action, uh, verticality and horizontal movement. In the very first stage, this game was a bit of a slow burn. At first I was like, Oh my God, are they removing the vertical, the verticality of these stages?

08:20 Because the scale just felt smaller, even though the graphics are the same size. Like I was looking, I was comparing, I'm like, okay, I think the guy that you play as is the same exact sprite. Uh, you know, probably with some upgrades as the, as the first game. So why does he feel smaller to me? And as you continue to play the levels, you're like, Oh, okay. It was just whatever. It was just like a, a notion I had that turned out not to be true.

08:43 Yes. This game even introduces the verticality, like a step further with the, uh, slopes. Now they're in the first game. It was only ever, uh, you know, straight platforms that you would just kind of hop up on top of with the slopes. Now they're introducing both, you know, rolling rocks and enemies rushing down at you.

09:01 So the, um, the slopes and the stage design in general is just a little more evolved than the first Contra game was. If it just takes maybe, uh, a while to get going. And then also once it gets going, it really just continues to introduce new things on top of that. Sean, you were talking about the elevator stage. And I do think those kinds of things, even if, if they're like small set pieces, they remind me back to, uh, Double Dragon 2. Where it's like, yeah, it's great that this isn't like, okay, every three stages, there's an elevator level, right? Like you don't need that.

09:36 No. Um, and what I really liked about the slope stages too, was this, that little polish where they're like, well, it would look kind of dumb if he's laying prone, like into the ground and his like feet are sticking out. So they just give you a whole new, like, like crouch, uh, sprite. And I just appreciated that, like that little extra polish there.

10:07 Go. and the first game kind of starts with you thinking like oh it's a like i'm fighting in the vietnam war maybe or something like or some kind of unnamed war whatever i'm in the jungles you're just you know we've been trained with that with so many nes games before it and then it kind of does this slow descent into madness where you're going like into the alien base and things become a

11:19 lot more grotesque and the enemies start to uh evolve first you're fighting machines now you're fighting like aliens mixed with machines very uncomfortable stuff especially for you know uh when those are the top of the line graphics at the time mouths are forming under your feet right right so super c takes that and obviously expands on it the aliens are striking back to use the original japanese releases title how is that descent this time uh is it is it like aliens right away or

11:49 is it um you know is it another slow burn is it kind of like you're going deeper into the jungle it escalates pretty quickly yeah yeah it's it's funny because i uh i forgot while i was playing that like we were going to go into like alien territory yeah it goes from pretty standard fair to uh you know standard laboratory high-tech base fair straight into geiger again um with uh with some

12:21 extra like goofy like yeah there are mouths that will open up under your feet um there's some pretty like metal imagery especially in the bosses um i i i think that like it wasn't as much of a surprise now because when you think of contra you just think of this is this is the route it's going to take like this is where we're going with this um i guess i guess i really like the that as a tradition

12:48 yeah i don't so in the original was it like a slower descent into madness or was it like this where it was just as just as abrupt you knew you were fighting aliens kind of like early on but it wasn't until i think the final two stages where you're actually like in the alien nest or whatever and like you're no longer like fighting in the jungles i don't think there was a a section of

13:12 contra one where you actually have to like work through the partially digested uh material of a giant alien which is i think what you were we did at one point here yeah this is kind of like uh what was that shmup we played abadocs you know where like you're you're going inside the alien planet and uh obviously there's crazy visuals in there i think you know uh it's a plus to to have these

13:42 kinds of insane visuals where it's not you know this game can't get an m rating or anything like that uh probably not even back then because the esrb didn't exist but just like the more extreme the better here and i do think especially from where it starts the game still has a kind of wow factor to it as the bosses continue to evolve because first you're fighting like guys in tanks

14:08 you know and by the end of it sean as you were mentioning like you know mouths are coming out of the floors and trying to swallow you whole like that's some really crazy imagery yeah the um the the boss design that i think i like the most well the the boss design in terms of just like how you kind of interact with the boss that i like the most was a much more uh a much less uh heavy metal

14:35 um the the spider tank thing i like that you know you usually you try not to step on these things because you're just going to get hit but you realize very quickly that you're going to have to jump on top of this tank but obviously you can't actually hurt it from up there so you have to like jump on and off as you see fit um but in terms of visual design i really like the one that kind of looked like um the the space jockey from alien eating uh like a a woman i don't know it was like a woman's face but there was like a weird skull thing on top of it and it just shot it shot like weird uh red bulbs at you i just really liked the image of that yeah that's like the final boss right that's uh

15:23 is it the final boss i think it i think it is yeah it's like it's it's like it looks like a woman's face like yeah she's like just being completely devoured by this monster and like just her face is sticking out of its mouth or something yeah okay i guess that was the final boss

15:40 yeah like what's the plan there were the aliens trying to do the massive no were they doing like the mass effect 2 route of like we're gonna make a human reaper like we're gonna make a human alien like it looks like they're like finishing swallowing a human to like make one of their own or something and the next form the next evolution of aliens uh that's what i was thinking of too with the descent to not madness but like alien nitty or whatever if i'm making up words uh just like

16:07 you know other video games that do that uh either you know good or bad mass effect 2 kind of came to mind as one that didn't quite deliver on that like the the ending zone was really cool where you have to like make choices based on your team and how well you know them and anybody can die but the actual like oh we made a human reaper as the final boss thing wasn't yeah that was pretty lame yeah

16:33 um i want to backtrack though just a little bit you were talking about like how you start out with these just guys in tanks and and just these people were fighting and then we go into the aliens who are these people is it in the manual are they like just on the alien side who are who are these like military people you're fighting at the beginning yeah i'm not sure i i know that the manual does have a good explanation for a lot of things like what uh mad dog and scorpion were doing right before the game started spoiler alert they were on a beach in rio with a bunch of native lovelies uh but i couldn't

17:08 quite read through the whole thing to understand the army thing here but surely the army is like probably you know if this is like a a twist of sorts there i don't think they're working with the aliens they probably are just trying to harness the power as well or whatever yeah i i have a theory and again i probably can have it confirmed or refuted by just reading the manual but uh you know near the end of the game there's this repeating like background sprite work um that it's sort of lining the walls and floors and ceilings of a very human looking figure with uh like hoses coming in and out of them so i want to say that they that they uh kidnapped a bunch of people and then you know

17:54 huskified them to borrow from to borrow from mass effect and now though now they're all dressed up in military garb and they're fighting you that's just my uninformed theory well you've given me enough time now to look it all up and so the manual says that uh not only is red falcon that's the guy the big bad uh alien that we took down in the first game not only is he back but um his uh he's basically commanded an army of intergalactic warriors to seep into the brains of not just any soldiers but the u.s army specifically oh and it's a mind contamination trick which has already

18:33 taken command of u.s forces at fort firestorm so there you go there's the answer they're they're not confused and trying to harness the power of the aliens although that would probably be like a kojima twist right that like the u.s army knows about the aliens on earth and is trying to secretly like harness their technology to get the one up on russia or something well the u.s army has been commanded by an alien since uh since late world war one would be right there's a very safe bet for you uh as a time period i don't think we have any world war one listeners here so nobody would nobody be offended by the time period you chose

19:14 and moving on so we talked about you know what's different for super c from contra but uh you know are is the game actually that different like i'm not saying you know don't fix it if it ain't broke but like does it feel like they i feel like all the same power-ups are here the way you acquire the power-ups is the same what the power-ups do are the same the way you shoot is the same uh you know that's kind of like unusual i guess as well i'm not trying to

19:42 complain i'm saying it's kind of unusual in these nes games where sequels usually mean like nah scrap it whole new game this one it's a puzzle game yeah that's something though that i noticed a lot and i think i think for me it works in its favor i i still could have done with some more changes i wouldn't have uh i wouldn't have said no to but yeah i feel like in this era a lot of the games that we've considered really good in their second time around they they make a totally different

20:12 game i mean like super mario brothers 2 i mean obviously that has its own story behind its development but like castlevania zelda 2 and all this and like to to varying results and i guess this is just like to me not that those are bad games but to me this is just like proving that like you can also just take something that works and improve on it rather than trying to make something totally new like i think video game sequels have always been able to do what movie sequels have

20:42 had a hard time doing in being better than the original very often and i think that's because it's like well you already have your base layer and whereas like a movie relies on the story and you probably already kind of tied up the story in the first one uh video game has has gameplay to fall back on too and it's like you can take this base layer and now now that it's already done you can spend your time improving it yeah i agree i i like that they kept it the same i guess partially because i just

21:10 really liked contra um and they did still try and like iterate on it where i mean it's still they haven't tried to iterate incredibly hard but that whole thing with changing to uh the the top down as opposed to the over the shoulder i guess that you could call depending on who you ask an improvement um so yeah i i agree with joe here i'm not trying to reiterate a conversation that we've had early on in the podcast probably 200 250 episodes ago about nes difficulty or difficulties at that time

21:45 and how they had to inflate the games to be harder to make them last longer and so this way you couldn't just rent them and beat them overnight but it is worth revisiting here now as we are in the 1990s and we've seen some longer form games super c is a game with only eight areas and yet some people probably will never get to the eighth area unless they are very good at contra like games running guns uh because of how hard it is but in a day and age now where you can play a 20 hour plus game and the whole game is just very easy barely manages to challenge you because games have become so accessible

22:25 and so like oh you die you start right where you died uh don't worry about it okay and in fact we've even tweaked it without you knowing to make the enemies a little easier yes that is something that developers do don't you doubt it for a second they totally you know include luck into the game to help you if you die a certain amount of times anyway we get back on topic super c is kind of a game that just you know could be i saw the speed run for the game and it's so fast that it's like huh that wasn't

22:53 my experience but theoretically you know like is it okay that the game is just something that you instead persevere on and that's the fun of the game have we have we had any revised thoughts on this i think it it is and it isn't so the the design of this game stands out among a lot of other nes games that i would consider nes hard where a lot of games are nes hard in a way that is unfair or or like

23:21 doesn't feel good you know this like when i lose normally uh i feel like okay i could beat that like it gives me that itch to try again because i'm like oh i'm so close or like oh i know what i could have done there um and i equate it to to equate it to a modern game to cuphead okay i play cuphead in that game you start you start a boss fight and it's like well this is actually impossible and then you you actually learn it and you actually get better and it and it it feels good

23:52 to do that and i think contra does that in always but two and the two things that i think work against that for me are one not having unlimited continues because like yeah let me start the beginning of the level every time if i'm going if i'm on you know if i'm on stage eight and i die and i have to start back at stage one i'm just gonna put down the game like i'm not gonna do all that again i know that's probably that's a product of its time it's the it's the arcade mental uh mentality but that's that's number one and then number two is just i don't know if you guys felt that there was some very unfair

24:33 spawning after you die a lot of times i would spawn i wouldn't know where i was about to spawn and i would just spawn like in a bullet like an enemy bullet and just die so like if those two things were fixed i would think that this difficulty is is perfectly balanced and like deliberately hard but not in like a cheap way yeah i agree um i i had less of an issue with the with the spawn deaths um but i can definitely see where that would come into play i i think that part of the

25:04 what what makes a game like this palatable is the fact that its controls are so tight and you don't have problems like in a lot of these games where you know there's some delay or some like momentum based stuff that really makes the controls harder to to handle and you know we we praise these games that have stuff like that specifically for having a much like momentum based controls or like oh it feels more fluid or something like that but in a game like this where it's basically a shmup and a bullet hell and a running gun all at once and it's just constant action uh i need the the controls to be

25:48 one-to-one and i think because that it does actually succeed at that i don't have as big of a problem with it when it comes to the amount of content in the game like the length of the actual game that's a bit fuzzier uh i think this could have helped with maybe one or two extra areas that i mean it can't be it can't be that much work to do another like totally hand handcrafted perfectly balanced level right but um i i still don't i i think it did pretty well for for what i think i would still

26:22 feel like it wasn't ripped off if i bought this game yeah i think it's just a product of the time too because there are games from 1987 that are you know like i'm thinking like metroid right and they're super long sprawling games where you can you know create passwords and continue on and so like what's stopping konami from being the kind of people who make a contra that's just like you know 50 levels but you have passwords and it's just you know sprawling madness or whatever just to put some

26:51 comparison to it though all three runs i'm about to present to you are assume the player never gets hit and if you assume the player never gets hit in super c the game is about 15 minutes long if you assume the player never gets hit in super mario brothers 2 the game is an hour and nine minutes long and if you assume the player never gets hit in super mario brothers 3 the game is two hours and 49 minutes long. So there is still like a question of just, you know, what's the goal here, both from a value standpoint and for the player.

27:28 And I think that these are the kind of questions that just can't age appropriately for this kind of show, because that you can't build them for the future. I think that's why Super Mario Brothers 3 like always holds up is that regardless, like everybody's always down for two hours and 49 minutes of perfect Mario, right? Like we're all cool with that. But, you know, for Super C, like, I don't know, maybe 15 minutes is the sweet spot of like, you know, well, this is if somebody was really, really good at this game, but most of you will probably never even get here. And it'll take hours and hours to play.

28:03 So, you know, just exploring that idea. Yeah, I think in like early levels of Contra versus early levels of Super Mario Brothers 3, it's a lot more reasonable to not take very many hits in Super Mario Brothers 3 than it is for a casual player in Contra. Because like, I mean, I'm speaking as someone who didn't beat the game. So maybe like, maybe I would get to the end and be like, oh, that didn't feel long enough. But like, again, I didn't beat the game. And I was still like, it took me a long time to not beat it. I also think it's a pacing thing, because you can take your time with, with Mario, but you mean, I know that there's time limits to those levels, but you can still sort of take it at your own pace.

28:44 And in Contra, you really can't sit still. So it's just, it's, it's, there's a lot more, I feel like it'd be pretty overwhelming if it was a game that long. I mean, yeah, you can break it up with, with passwords and, and whatever. But I guess like, if it's a game that you want to beat in a sitting, if you're just really that good at the game, then I think that's a, this is an okay length for that. Also going by the, just what the game is trying to get you to do. And lastly, let's talk difficulty.

29:17 So obviously, it's fun to talk about the design and the enemies and all the cool stuff in the game. But as Joe mentioned, it's a challenging game that not many people will see the ending of, especially when they do things like remove the Konami code from the game, which was in the original Contra. So it's not like, oh, they just didn't invent it yet. It's been in all sorts of Konami games.

29:38 They just didn't include it on this one for whatever reason. And then obviously, to make matters worse, like Joe mentioned, if you run out of lives, you get to continue, but you can only continue three times and then you're actually game over for good. So forget about the fact that they won't give you the 30 lives, they only give you like 10 with a different code. So it's like, it doesn't even feel good to put that code in.

29:58 But then also, once you lose those lives, and all that, then you're just stuck on three continues and you're out. So it is very challenging in the sense of just scale from the original Contra, like how forgiving that game was in terms of number of lives and continue system and everything. But what about the actual enemies? I feel like in this game, a lot of the actual challenge just came from weird spawning of enemies. And but what I mean is, is it's like it kind of you have to have played through it once to

30:33 know the set pieces kind of well, there was a certain jump in area five that I wrote down because I was like, I'm gonna talk about this on the show, like this bothers me so much that I'm gonna put it down for the show. And what happened is, is that it's in the slopes in area five. Yeah, it's a jump that is required by the player that you need to know that you not only have to jump, but then you have to kind of move out of the way because one of those purple rocks is going to fall directly where you have to jump.

31:00 And that's something that like is unavoidable for the most part, the first time it happens to you, it's almost like a jump scare in a movie. And now you have the ability the second time watching the movie to to be like, No, never mind guys, I know that there's a jump scare. So everybody just look away and everybody looks away and they don't get scared. It's like the same. I don't never want to watch a movie with you. Yeah, I know. That's so funny to think about. But I just I like the analogy, especially since we're recording this in October. So I think it's like a November episode, but we're recording it in October.

31:30 I get what you're saying, though, that I think that if you have like perfect reaction time, you could probably avoid it. But you by now you're probably in some kind of in some kind of flow state. And you're just trying to like, make that perfect jump and not get hit by that projectile. Because at the same time, I know the part you're talking about, there's a guy on the other side of the jump that is shooting at you. And so you're more focused on him. So it's kind of more of a it is definitely a jump scare sort of get gotcha moment.

32:02 But I don't really again, this is a game about that where you're supposed to die a lot. I mean, maybe not supposed to but in the course of playing the game, you're likely to die a lot. So I don't see it as that cheap. Yeah, I, I noticed it, but not, not so much, I think, because while it's definitely like a factor, I think that most games that we've played where that's possible, that happens like, like, like a lot, a lot more than this, like, and I think it's definitely a problem and an issue. And I think I was more pleased that it wasn't happening as much.

32:40 So like, I was giving it a pass the times that that I did feel like, wow, I couldn't have possibly avoided that because so much more percentage of the time, I felt like, hey, I, I have agency here.

32:52 So yeah, not not an excuse to wrongs don't make a right super C, but it, it didn't bother me quite as much because I was like, more pleased in comparison to other games. Intentional by Konami or not, there is a hustle factor or adrenaline rush to the entire game by the way that enemies spawn in and stuff. And that by that, I mean, there, there's like an enemy trap situation. If you, if they're not cleared fast enough and you don't move on to Sean's point about Super Mario Brothers three, when you kill the Goomba on screen, you can just hang out there and kind of just hit the coin blocks and see what happens and explore to see if there's anything else hidden in the stage.

33:35 That's not available to you in super C. There is a, there is a constant need to just continue scrolling, to move on, to clear out, don't kill everything, kill what's in front of you, kill what's in your way, continue to move on because things will just keep spawning in, but not necessarily in the, uh, unfair bullet hell way that we talk about usually with these NES hard games, just in the sense that, you know, there's, there's no time to just kind of relax while you're playing the game. Would you agree?

34:04 I think like we complained about that a lot in less, uh, deliberately designed games is what I guess I'll, I'll describe them as where it just seemed like, oh, you killed it. And then another one comes out of the same spawn point immediately after you kill it. And then, okay, you kill it again. And another one comes right back out. Whereas this one, like it, it gives you a moment, like you killed the thing, you did what you were supposed to do.

34:31 And it's only when you kind of linger that they keep coming. Like it's definitely a bit more, uh, more fine tuned to be more of like an engine to keep you moving than it is just this thing that just keeps happening. An entire genre of indie games will go on to do this kind of thing where it's all, uh, uh, to a, to an even larger extent. It's rushing. It's, uh, it's fast fingers. It's, um,

35:00 bullet hells and stuff like that. But super C is doing it in a way that is both for the casual player, the person who enjoys super Mario brothers three. Um, it's probably a rude awakening for, for someone like that, someone who plays slower paced games, but for the person who does frequent the arcade and is used to that kind of stuff. I think that there is a, um, accessibility thing here to like taking it home and trying to master it on your own.

35:26 Again, uh, to my point earlier about just like, now we have 40 hour games that never quite challenge you because you could select the difficulty to just be, well, just tell me the story or balanced, but balanced is basically just tell me the story too, but make me feel like I'm doing a little more, uh, unless you're playing on like the hardest difficulty settings, most games aren't that challenging these days. And super C instead is offering a challenge, you know, that's more familiar to the NES days of just like, can you even beat the game? Like that's the accomplishment is like, can you get to the end of the stage? How far can you go? Tell your friends what you saw in the next area.

36:06 And if difficulty is definitely a factor, then, uh, you'll definitely want two players for this one. Uh, super C allows for two player co-op. Joe, you're usually the guy who does the co-op stuff. Did you do one here? I did. Um, and I'll say that

36:22 it's predictably more fun in my opinion, but also a little bit harder almost. Whoa. And which seems weird because you have two players, but I, you know, it's the, it's the inability to both of you at, at every moment have control of the screen. You know, if one of you falls behind, you got to kind of like wait for, for the person in front has to sort of wait. And like that causes a lot more deaths than you'd think, because there's a lot of times where it's like, you can't see something ahead or you can't get out of the way because you can't move far enough back and get away from your partner that far. Uh, it's even worse when your partner dies, because for some reason you can move even,

37:03 even less distance away from where they died once they're dead. Like you can't even get all the way to the other end of the screen. So there's like this invisible wall that killed me so many times and killed my friend so many times because I died very frequently as well.

37:17 Um, but like, of course, it's just more fun to be like co-oping a game than it is to play single player. But we did notice a few times if like one of us would die, uh, and lose all of our lives, there was like a brief moment where we're like, Oh, this is a little easier for the other person, which is kind of funny because I was making the argument that you would think having two guns is better than one. And certainly that's what the game is proposing to you too, by introducing two main characters. And it probably is. It's like your offense is better, but your defense is worse. I can see that leading to a lot of pitfall deaths.

37:50 Exactly. Yeah. Sean, you were asking how hard could it be to create, um, a uniquely balanced stage for the NES. Uh, but could I tell you that they actually did that, uh, three times for this NES version? There are three levels exclusive to the NES version that were not in the arcade.

38:08 Um, the high tech base, some kind of mountain level and the alien nest, which are all you guessed it, the top down stages. They were not present in the arcade game. They are only, uh, in the NES version. And so could you imagine a game that didn't have, uh, that just basically was always side scrolling action. Uh, I can understand why that works in the arcade, but, uh, you know, I mean, I can even see, I can't, it's not even just the fact that they're all the same kind of gameplay.

38:37 Like I, you know, I, I don't expect two different kinds of gameplay in a game, but if we're just talking about raw, uh, like length of the game and like just the amount of levels offered, that probably would have been a problem if it was just the side scrolling levels, then I might say that, Oh, this is just a really short game. And I, I don't know how much I can recommend a game that short.

39:06 Contra of course is a classic and is talked about a lot. We've even talked about it a lot to help navigate this super C conversation, knowing that probably a lot of people who are listening to the show are at least familiar with Contra, if not super C and then Contra three is also a very well-regarded game. Um, and even got put on the, um, the SNES mini or whatever they called it, um, back during that holiday season where they were just like, yeah, miniature consoles. That's what everybody's doing these days. We'll do it too. Uh, you know, those are both very well-regarded games. Not that super C is a good or bad game. We'll find that out in a second.

39:39 Super C seems less talked about less in the, um, you know, in the cultural zeitgeist. And I was just wondering, are there any other franchises where the second game in the series is kind of under the radar? It might be easy to say super Mario brothers two, since super Mario brothers three is more like super Mario brothers one. I don't think that's the answer. I'm actually going to say, uh, to take a page from Joe here.

40:02 I think crash bandicoot two is not, it's again, it's not, it's not that it's the worst game in the trilogy or whatever. It's the under the radar one. Everybody knows the first game. It's the one that launched the franchise and everybody's talks about three. Like it's the second coming of platform video games or something. And we're just because it introduces motorcycle levels, but I don't really hear people talk about crash two, Joe, your thoughts. I have an, I have an opinion on that because, uh, I think you're right.

40:27 I maybe, maybe it's because I grew up around other crash bandicoot fans. I actually always, always thought that people underrated the first game because it didn't have all like the bells and whistles and stuff, but you're right. Two year one is the one everybody knows because of the launch three is like the most popular one.

40:44 Um, I always have thought that three is the worst of the trilogy. Uh, so wow. I don't know how much we want to get into my crash bandicoot opinions. No, I don't think we need to go there, but, uh, maybe we'll get another, we'll get another podcast about that. I want to hear it. I want to hear it, Joe. Maybe in the post show. Yeah. Now hold on a second. Cause I'm sure you also have an answer to my question. I do. Oh, and here it is. I'll say it now.

41:11 Um, I think metal gear, uh, that we deployed two weeks ago last week. What one was that? Uh, the second metal gear two snakes, snakes revenge. Well, that's got an asterisk on a two though. Yeah, but technically it does exist as a game. Like it's true. It's true. I thought when you, when you brought up Joe immediately, I thought you were going to talk about Zelda two. Well, but Zelda two does have like a following, right? You know, it's like maybe, maybe that's more recent. I'm sure there are crash bandicoot two truthers.

41:40 Oh, certainly. But I feel like Zelda two, like, I feel like everybody knows about it. People are hot or cold on it. So maybe if that's the question that it's like completely like underrated by a lot of people, but like it has like a rabid fan base. Yeah. Um, whereas I'd never even heard of this one. What's that? Whereas, I mean, I mean, I figured that there would be a Contra two, uh, because I know of Contra three, but I didn't know it was going to be called super C.

42:08 So I don't know what I'm saying. Yeah. But no, I mean, I do think that like, there's, there's merit to the Zelda two version too, but I was just not, I was trying to look at something like maybe because I had, didn't know anything about snakes revenge. And I actually had a friend of mine, uh, play a little bit of it with me who is a big outside of you, Sean, probably the biggest metal gear fan that I know. Um, and he was like, he had never played it and had not had, I think he had heard of it and just heard like, it's not real.

42:40 Another one I was thinking of just to help, uh, alleviate the conversation a little mafia too. Um, mafia one was a game that I remember like, I, you know, take it or leave it. I liked it. Uh, it was like my introduction to that Grand Theft Auto style of video game. And then mafia three got like a huge push, uh, because it, it came out much later and it was supposed to be like a GTA clone and everything. And it's definitely more of like,

43:06 I don't know, it's, it's more removed from that, but apparently mafia two is a game that existed. I just somehow didn't play that one, but I played mafia and mafia three. It's just kind of funny. Yeah. I, I, I, I guess it depends on what circles you travel in on the internet because I was really hyped about mafia two and then it just didn't run very well on the PC at all. So I just never really played it.

43:32 It is hard to get an answer to this question though, because I, I think, well, you know, here's another one far cry two. I feel like far cry. I know, but I'm saying like far cry established the franchise far cry three is the one that like, kind of, at least in my opinion, like that's when you get the franchise expanded a lot more and then you have blood dragon and then, you know, just basically became a major franchise. Far cry two is the one that people just don't talk about. I don't hear, you don't hear a lot of things. I brought a, I bring up far cry two on this podcast every other day. Okay. Well, what about bioshock two? That's what I was just going to say. I was going to ask you guys about that one. Cause I like to franchise.

44:13 I think bioshock two is a fun game. It's another situation where the, the PC port was terrible and would crash after the first level. So it never really played too much of that one. Well, the funny thing is, is like bioshock two is like, I'm not, I'm not willing to die for it here though. I'm agreeing. I think it's in that super C level of games where it's like, it exists.

44:32 I had a good time playing it and everything. But when you think about it, it's like the first bioshock was so revolutionary for the time. And then bioshock infinite, obviously it was like getting, I think it even got all the game of the year accolades for that year. Even though now everybody who has an internet subscription is saying that it's the worst game of all time or whatever, because it just didn't hold up or didn't, or it's overrated now. It held up. Yeah. It's, it's a fine game. I'm willing to say that. Yeah. There's like bullet sponges everywhere, but to find me a video game these days that doesn't have that.

45:08 Anyway, my point being bioshock two fine, fine game. I got one more. And I, again, one that I'm not super familiar with. What about fable two or no, fable three is the one people don't like. Yeah. Fable three is yeah. Fable two is the good one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nevermind. Forget. I said anything, Joe. Uh, sorry, Sean, any, um, any contributions?

45:30 Um, no. Great. So then that means that rather than drag this on any longer, we will just move into our final segment where we stopped talking about if super C is even a known video game and instead talk about if it should be on the essential games list.

45:50 I had a great time with super C. I definitely think it's more contra and, uh, it expands the game ever so slightly. Like it, it, it actually feels like in some ways the game isn't expanding. It's just changing a little bit. And those changes could be for better or for worse. Maybe I've played the original contra so many times that I'm like not ready for the change, but I don't feel like super C was the overwhelming improvement over the contra that's currently on the essential games list. It's more like, um, somebody was like, you know, Hey, if you want more contra, you could play this game, but it's not like it's not definitively better than what I played so many years ago.

46:34 And so maybe a little controversial, but I am going to say that just for small reasons, like the Konami code not existing in this game being increasingly more challenging that I would prefer to keep contra on the essential games list for basically the same experience, but a little more accessible in 2023. Sean, um, black and white too.

46:59 That was a, that's a game that people don't really think of pretty often. Um, the popular one, black and white too. I remember seeing, yeah, I saw, um, well, wait, not the Pokemon game. Oh, I thought you're talking about Pokemon black. Yeah. No, you're talking about the simulation game, right? The God simulation game. Yeah. The God game. Yeah. I saw a magazine advert for black and white too. And I was like, how will I ever play this game? Cause I just, you know, we were running like windows 95 at the time.

47:29 Okay. Anyway. Uh, I had another one, but I forgot what it was. Uh, much like the point of the exercise, but I think there's room enough for two contras on the essential games list. Maybe, maybe I'm the, you guys won't. I mean, I know that Mike doesn't agree with me. Uh, maybe Joe will, maybe he won't. I just like these games enough to say that there's room for both. So I'm going to vote this essential. Joe. Yeah.

47:59 I mean, I, I know we've, we've had so many conversations about like, if something in the future does this better, does that mean that it can't be on and, and, and same thing in reverse. And I also feel that this is, even though there's minor improvements, even though it didn't do anything like major to improve over the original, I'd say this is at least as good as the original. Um, and to that sense, like if, if I'm going to say like, Hey, these are the games that I would recommend you play on the NES that hold up today.

48:32 This has to be there. The only thing that would, that would make me, that would give me any pause is what I mentioned about the continues. And I basically what you said, Mike, like the, uh, the, the, the slight difficulty, the little slightly less accessible because of that difficulty.

48:51 Um, I understand that maybe being something that would keep it off, but I, I don't think it's enough. I, I think this game is just as fun as the original with like there, you know, there's a wishlist of things that I wish it did, but same thing with original Contra. So I would definitely say this is a, uh, uh, an essential game. All right. And with that, we have a new introduction to the essential games list or induction, I should say, uh, no new introduction, same rules.

49:16 I'm Sean. Yeah. And, uh, that's, uh, actually it wasn't that long of a gap. So the most recent essential games are seeming to be about 15 episodes apart now, which is great. Uh, so you have Super Mario Brothers three, Terra Cresta. It's very important to Mike that there's enough of a gap. There has to be rhythm.

49:34 Uh, yeah, well think about it. You know, if we put Snoopy's silly sports spectacular on the essential games list last week, could we really allow Super C? Yeah, that's why I didn't. Yeah. For anybody who's worried about any kind of conspiracy for that, just know that Spy vs Spy, Super Mario Brothers 2, and Blaster Master all were essential games. And that was three essential games in four episodes. So nobody's counting, nobody's keeping a list. Uh, all that, uh, to say that the essential games list continues to expand.

50:02 And, uh, hopefully you guys are, uh, liking where the list is going, or if you're not liking it too, that's a good time to write into us and tell us how stupid we are. I've had, yeah, I've had people say, you guys don't have Excitebike on the essential games list page. And I'm like, oh, you're a new one. You're fresh. Uh, just wait till you find out when we do do these games, uh, in our best of episodes, because who knows what's going to change in these best of episodes as well. That said, because there's no 15 game rule limit, uh, as Sean seemed to be implying, next week we will play Tecmo World Wrestling, where it will have its shot at the title of essential games list. Thank you.