209 · Jordan VS Bird: One on One

• Half Court is Now in Session
• NES Longplay
• Introductions
  • Advertised as 3 Games in one, but that’s really just 3 different modes. It’s a nice try
• Overview
  • It’s Michael Jordan vs Larry Bird. Or Larry Bird and Michael Jordan versus themselves.
• Gameplay
  • One-On-One
    • 1-on-1 rules
    • Lots of option
    • Not much blocking
    • Fouls
    • Detailed stats
  • Slam Dunk
    • You really don’t feel like you’re playing
    • Is scoring dependent on where you released the ball or just random?
  • 3 Point Shootout
    • Timing makes sense, but this just feels like a warm up even when you’re playing the compeition
• Electronic Arts
• Sequels and Spinoffs
  • It is the sequel to One on One: Dr. J vs. Larry Bird.
  • Michael Jordan in Flight (1993)
  • Michael Jordan: Chaos in the Windy City (1994)
  • Space Jam (1996)
  • Barkley: Shut Up and Jam Gaiden
    • The RPG video game where In 2053, another Chaos Dunk is performed in Manhattan, killing millions. Barkley is blamed for the Chaos Dunk and is hunted by the B-Ball Removal Department, led by Michael Jordan.
    • The Magical Realms of Tír na nÓg: Escape from Necron 7 – Revenge of KOOK-UH-LAIN: The Official Game of the Movie – Chapter 2 of the Hoopz Barkley SaGa
      • Was cancelled after it entered development hell
• EGL
• Next week - Dragon Warrior

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Jordan vs. Bird, one-on-one. Half-court is now in session.

00:20 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. Guys, Jordan vs. Bird. It's the matchup everybody was waiting for, I suppose, in 1989.

00:39 Wait, so were Jordan and Bird both judges in the court? Or were they... What was this? Right, right. This is not a lawyer simulator game a la Phoenix Wright or anything like that. This is a different court, the basketball court. Oh. I see. It's advertised as three games in one, but that's not true at all. That's like saying Cobra Triangle was, you know, 11 games in one.

01:10 Like, just because they're different layouts of the levels or different modes doesn't mean that it's a totally different game, right? Or to be better, like Track and Field 2, probably a more obvious example. Like, that wasn't 12 games in one. No, no. That was one game that had 12 minigames. Right. This is three minigames in one game where you either play as Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, or

01:37 I guess like Larry Bird versing himself and Michael Jordan versing himself. Wait, no. You can do that? Yeah, you can do that. Not in that particular mode, but in the other modes that are exclusive to that mode. We'll get into it because it is a little weird. Yes, yes. But nobody else is allowed to be in this game is the point I'm making. Do not show a referee. Do not show a crowd. It is... There's some judges, though. Oh, there's judges, yeah. So I guess like, you know, the court is in session. Yeah. But here's the scoop, okay? Jordan versus Bird.

02:11 I don't think, you know, in 2022, I don't even know if like that's like a dream matchup for anybody these days. Oh, it still is. You think so? Yeah. Like he played, he played during the same time. So it's like, you know what would have went down, right? It's not like Babe Ruth versus Barry Bonds, right? No, but they were like, they were both like legends of the game. Like, yeah, they're... And they still are. Like, it's not... I mean, it's as if there was a James versus Bryant now. Like, they're still going to be icons. So I still think it works. It's not like it's a Ty Domi versus Rob Ray.

02:58 A bunch of forgettable names. Yeah. I don't, you know, I'm not, I don't follow basketball or anything, but I always thought that Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were the bigger, the bigger rivalry.

03:12 Right. I guess that's what I'm getting at too, is like, we saw this happen in real life. So I feel like, you know, what people would want now, obviously, is like Michael Jordan versus LeBron James, right? Like they both have a Space Jam movie. They both considered the greatest of all time in the game. Yeah, wait a minute. Larry Bird doesn't even have a Space Jam movie. Why is he in this game? Yeah, that's a good question. I think that like, obviously, I don't know too much about basketball either, but I want to say that Jordan is in this with Bird because like Jordan is sort of just coming into his own right now. Very true. And Bird is like the more established star.

03:54 And while Magic Johnson versus Larry Bird may be the better, the more canon matchup, this is better for marketing. Yeah, I completely agree with you, by the way, Sean. I'm just saying like, you know, in 2022, I guess it doesn't have as much power as it did in 1989 to your point of like, this would have been, you know, like, who in their prime, you know, because yeah, Larry Bird had been playing since 1980.

04:20 And Michael Jordan joined the league in 87. So not too big of a difference for them, but still like big enough to wonder like, you know, if they both started at the same time, who would be considered the best? I don't know. Anyway, we're gonna talk about the video game now because that's all I you know, that's all I know about basketball is that Michael Jordan once held a basketball, made a bunch of shots, and then was abducted by the Looney Tunes to save them from the Monstars. Yeah, I mean, that's really all you need to know. So I guess we can go to the essential games list.

04:56 Yeah, no, no, no, no, let's, let's talk about the, you know, the three different games that are included. We'll start with the most obvious one, the one that people probably bought the game for. And that is the one on one mode where you either play as Michael Jordan or Larry Bird or watch computers play as Michael Jordan and Larry Bird in a one on one match that gives you surprisingly a lot of different options and choices about how to pull off this or one on one on one battle. Right? Yeah, it kind of feels like that they're going for that, like, one on one in your driveway, sort of feel like you can decide like what you want to play to.

05:38 Obviously, you're not going to decide whether to enforce fouls in like a backyard game. But it that is sort of going for that kind of more casual version of the sport that you can you can customize. While you're playing it. So that's sort of what I was gathering from it. Yeah, it seems like it's it's another I mean, I guess a lot of games we play are like this, but it's definitely one that seems like it's more designed to to play with your friend, you know, your friend slash rival. And and do one on one, literally one on one in real life. But yeah, playing with the computer was disappointing, functional.

06:21 And, you know, something about Sean, you being true to the whole like backyard rules or whatever, right? Because it isn't on like an official NBA court or whatever. There's like a brick wall behind you. It looks like you're playing on a playground or whatever. But even just the sprite work, like I feel like it is, you know, the kid versions of Michael Jordan and Larry Bird.

06:40 I'm not sure what they could have done with the resources they had here in terms of artistic creative creativity to make them feel like grown men. But I don't know. I'm just not I'm not feeling it here versus like how grown men playing basketball looked in like double dribble. I was more sold on the idea that those were professional athletes and not like, you know, two teenagers during gym class. I think a lot of that is just coming through on the sprite work.

07:08 One thing that I'm I noticed is just that they both look like they're they're just standing in a weird position. Like they're they're just like they're they need to really poop. And it's really just the animation that I think is giving you the the feel that these are not grown athletes that are like at peak physical fitness and human human capability.

07:39 That's a problem that this game has. Yeah. Did you feel like, though, that could the controls were a little stiffer than like I mean, what was another like double dribble or what? Have we played another basketball game other than double dribble? I think that's it. I was thinking about it and another one does not come to mind. Some either double dribble was that good that we just blocked out the other ones or we did not. We just haven't seen variety in basketball.

08:03 But this also like, you know, since it's just a half court. Oh, no. Sorry. We did play one. It was the kids. It wasn't it wasn't like professional. It was literally kids playing in. Oh, yeah. Different neighborhoods. Yeah. Hoops. Oh, yeah. I don't know. No, no, no. Just hoops. For the three hour movie, please go to a different podcast.

08:26 You know, so I guess like what you know, what I'm noticing is, is that this game can't be double dribble just because of the way that, you know, the camera is situated in the half court design of the game. Right. They really wanted it to just be a more relaxed one on one style game. However, yeah, everything is stiff because there's not a lot of like control over what you can do as the defender. Right. Like, yeah, I feel like you can either jump and that's like a kind of impossible task to to to time. Right. Like, I'm not saying you can never do it.

09:01 But jumping and blocking the ball in that kind of regard requires inputting it almost immediately after the if you do it at the same time, it won't matter. But if you do it just a little bit after, you'll get it. But any later than that, too. And the ball's already beyond you. And you also have to be in perfect position. Right. You have to be directly in front of them, which is, you know, another thing where it's like when it comes down to timing when they're going to jump, you know, there's no there's no tell or anything like that. It's just the input happening. So the other option is to block with your hands.

09:37 And I don't know, like that didn't always respond. I don't know if you have to like mean like stealing the ball. Yeah. Stealing the ball. Like, I don't know if like you have to be directly next to them or something in order for that to register. But I didn't feel like that button was always working. No, you definitely have to spam it. And thankfully, there's really no there's no bad consequence for spamming steel aside from you can't move during it. But I found that there were other ways to be to play this game and defend that definitely weren't intended. But yeah, the the designed steel button is a crapshoot.

10:17 See, I thought that and I could be totally wrong because I could not really verify it because it is a little funky. It's hard to see if it's registering the way you think it's registering. But I was starting to think that you needed to press. What does it be? Whatever the steel button is at the same time as pressing the direction on the D pad that you want that you want to steal. Like, that's why you can't move because you have to like like I noticed that it only seemed like I was I was doing anything. If I was pressing left, he would he would move. He would reach to the left. And if I was pressing right, he would reach to the right. Wow. I wonder if that's the case. And I was just not doing anything.

10:57 But if it makes you feel better, I was doing that the whole time. And I almost never stole the ball. OK, so don't worry about it. Yeah, I feel like your best shot is hoping that, you know, whoever you're playing against misses their shot and you're able to rebound the ball that way. Right. Like the you're better off chasing the ball from when they if you weren't able to successfully steal it or block it.

11:22 You're better off just chasing after the ball and hoping you pick up the rebound that way, because that was the most successful way for me to turn over the ball. Now, the other thing is you can also decide whether winner gets out or not, which means that like if you're playing as Michael Jordan and you make the shot, you could get the ball right back if you play under winner's out rules.

11:42 However, that's probably going to burn you if you're playing with the computer, because if the computer if you if you haven't mastered stealing the ball, there's a good chance the computer can continue to just rake points as they get the ball over and over again on the off chance that they score once. So I think like that strategy, like being able to turn that on and off is a good toggle.

12:03 And I'm glad they thought of things like that. The other things that you can change, such as like the period length or, you know, making it a first to 11 or first to 15 or a full game, you know, again, all nice choices. But it doesn't change how you play the game. Right. Like shot the shot clock still always remains 24 seconds as it should.

12:25 But like, you know, the only thing that changes is just how much time commitment you're putting into the game, not necessarily any strategies or or or control movements. No, the strategy is if you're feeling risky, take three pointers. And if you're not, dunk, because at least if you're playing as Jordan, as long as you're driving to the net, like you're going to hit your dunk. It's it's pretty press X to win at that point.

12:58 But I also found that when you're defending, at least against the computer, I don't think that this is this wouldn't be a problem if you're playing against another person. But you can just sort of like box them out and like sort of guide them to the corner and they'll just wait until their shot clock is about to expire. And then they'll they'll do like a really low probability throw that you can just go and like rebound. Or if you time it right, just block and steal out of their hands. And again, this isn't a way that I'd like to play, but it's it's surprising how simple the AI is in this game.

13:41 Yeah, and that's something I feel like you don't even need to really look for. Like, I mean, I just stumbled upon that myself. And I don't know about you, Mike, but like, I feel like that's just something that like will naturally happen at one point during your playthrough. And then and then immediately you've discovered this exploit. Yeah. And there's not, you know, much else to do otherwise. Right. It's like the other way to play this game. It's like the other way to play this game is just to continue taking taking shots. You know, the computer makes his basket. I make my basket. We wait until somebody, you know, makes a goof.

14:11 Right. Like otherwise, otherwise it's just going to continue to be, you know, like most basketball games are a pretty close scoring thing where, you know, comes down to like, you know, the final minute of the game or something like that, where all of a sudden you're like thinking about, you know, how do I do I risk the three to go up ahead? You know, and I think that's an interesting component. I do wonder what you were hinting at, Sean, with Michael Jordan not missing a dunk because he never missed a dunk for me either.

14:39 But I have to imagine, and maybe it's confirmed in the manual, that like Michael would be great at, you know, dunking and never missing it or stuff like that. But like that Larry would be better at the, you know, the field goal shots. Yeah, I imagine. I guess my question was, are they functionally the same in the one on one?

15:01 Is Larry going to never miss a dunk either? Is their three point percentage the same? Or like is the window of timing a three pointer different between the two of them? I couldn't tell because I guess I really only played as Michael Jordan. But did you did you play as Larry Bird? I did play as Larry Bird and noticed that my three pointers were better. So I guess that's what I was thinking. Like, OK, if you think about the other two modes, right, it's one is a slam dunk contest with Michael and the other one's a three point shootout with Larry. So I'm assuming that they had to do that. But I don't know how much playtesting I was going to be willing to do between the two characters. So did you dunk? Did you dunk with Larry?

15:48 I did not try a dunk with Larry. No, I was I was trying. I was trying to get, you know, to because I was playing best of 11 in that particular mode. I was just taking threes, you know, hoping for the best and then rebounding the ball before Michael did. If I missed the shot. What about you? Yeah, I played with with both of them. I I'd like to say I noticed it that the three the three pointers were a little easier with Larry Bird.

16:14 But I I don't know if I'm kind of imagining that. But if that is the case personally, maybe this is because I'm dumb and couldn't figure out how to dunk. Dunk. But I think that that gives you a huge advantage because it seems like dunking is so overly complicated. Am I missing something? It's literally just drive forward to the net. And while you're moving, hit the the, you know, basket button and you'll do a dunk.

16:42 I tried it a million times. Yeah. You must be thinking of the slam dunk contest, right? Yes. Yeah. The slam dunk contest. OK, so I thought I assumed it was the same control. No, no. It's a little different. OK. In the so I didn't even try to dunk in the in the actual game. But in the slam dunk contest, I I did what it said in the manual. I looked up a video online and I tried it a million times and I could not I could not do anything in the dunk challenge. So maybe that's different than what I was trying to do in the actual game. But in the actual one on one, I felt like a. A three pointer was giving me more of an advantage than having it having an advantage in dunking. But that's with inaccurate information, I guess. So redacted.

17:33 So in each of these games, right, there's the the full game, right? The actual mode, if you will. Then for one on one, they do give you the shorter game of 15 or 11 where you just first person to score to that point. But then there's also a warm up for all three of these modes. And just focusing on one on one for a minute. What's the incentive? Why would you why would you pick that mode? I couldn't quite figure it out. I don't really know. Is it just like non is it not timed?

18:02 Sure. But I guess. Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, is like it's still the exact game. Like, even if even if you pretend like it's like, OK, cool. Now it's like there's it's just the same game without any winner. Right. It's like, what's the consequence? Like, you're not actually getting any better whether you win or lose. Right. It's not like there's like stat carryovers that are like, oh, yeah, he made this many three pointers. So now his three pointers are boosted in the next game. It's like there's no reason to really like warm up.

18:31 Yeah. Well, you're basically saying is if you want to warm up in this video game, just play a just play around of the actual game. Because it's no different than the warm up mode. It's like Super Mario Brothers. They also gave you like the course again, like in a warm up mode. But it's like nothing. Yeah. You just never die. Right. Like you just go back. Yeah. Nothing's different. But like this time now it's like you just play that level over and over again until you make it through. You know, you I don't I don't think that's worth it.

18:57 Yeah, I think it's a it's kind of a useless. It's a useless mode, but it's there. I don't know how else to describe it. Yeah. I wanted a cool down mode. You know. You do it. You do a little cool down after your after your workout. You know, them just doing laps around the gym.

19:31 You do it. All right. After one on one, there's the slam dunk contest and the slam dunk contest is just with Michael. So this is where I was referring to where Mr. Jordan, Mr. Jordan versus himself, because depending on which mode you're playing, it's it's only Michael Jordan's. Right. So there's no there's no other characters or even just like throw away rights that they like programmed in the game. It's just still Michael Jordan, who I could have sworn was me. Like I thought I was doing the input thing. And then it's like, no, now it's your turn. Why do you go second? I'm player one. I can't figure that out. Well, now you're player two.

20:35 I'm just happy you go second because it gives you some if you don't have like again, maybe I'm going to miss out like an idiot again. And I have this totally wrong. But it seems like you need to sort of know exactly where to be to do these different moves. So like I at least get to watch where the computer went and try and do that move. No, you're right. That's that's how it works. That's what follow the leader is for. There's a mode right here called follow the leader in the slam dunk section.

21:01 I tried every mode with slam dunking. Got it. But in follow the leader, they show you how to do like you pick the move and then they show you how to do that move. And then it's like you're just supposed to remember that now forever. Like, oh, yeah. And the moves are not like complicated, you know, fighting game style special moves where you have to like do a bunch of different deep head inputs and, you know, quarter turns and stuff like that. It's just you go to the left of the court or you go to the right of the court or you go down the middle. You're basically just making either straight lines or use.

21:33 And depending on that, depending on that you picked the right thing, you can't. Like, that's the problem with the slam dunk contest is that you actually have to tell them which move you're about to do. And because of that, you then have to do that exact input. Instead, there should be some more freestyle to it where like every kind of slam dunk in the game is slightly different, not just go to the left or the right or whatever. Well, that's what a slam dunk contest is supposed to do.

22:00 It's not supposed to be like, oh, who can do this specific move better? You're supposed to be creative with it. And like, I don't know how they would have done this. Like, maybe like you, you see how each move can be done, like which rune to draw on the court before you go to the net.

22:20 And then, and sort of do like that whole memorize it and try and execute the best. But the way that it is now, it is literally just like do the exact same thing, but time that last button a little bit better than the computer.

22:38 It's very strange. Yeah, it almost feels like it would have been, you know, not the best solution, but interesting to have the mode that they have now where you select your, you know, you do follow the leader or whatever, or you select your move and you do that movement. But then also when you feel like you've memorized a couple of them or you've gotten advanced enough, now a mode where you don't get those prompts and you have to decide in the moment which one of those formations you want to do. But I suspect that like it was a little much for the game to try and remember all of those formations at once to make sure your inputs are right.

23:17 Because like I'm sure some of them overlap a little bit, right? Oh yeah, absolutely. So like you have to select it first in order to like tell the game, hey, this is what I'm going to attempt.

23:29 But I just want to ask you guys, like, was I just really bad at this? I could not time it right or something. I would just run in and just be running around until, did you ever dunk?

23:41 Yeah, I got a few. Yeah, I dunked pretty consistently. I'm a little confused. I am too. Especially if you're doing follow the leader, like if you just watch them do the thing, like it just wasn't working for you. So what I was doing, tell me if this is not what you're supposed to be doing, is like, okay, I'd see Jordan number one run, he'd run to the right and he'd run around and he'd hit a certain point on the court and he'd jump and he'd dunk. And I would do that same run around to the right, hit that certain point and then I would hold A when I hit that point and nothing would happen.

24:12 Okay, so here's what I think it is. I think that you stopped forward movement. Does that sound right? No. Were you still moving forward? I tried, I literally tried everything. I tried, I assumed you'd have to keep moving forward while you did it. So I did that. After a while I was like, do you have to stop? And I stopped and I pressed it. I tried it with B. I tried it with both. I tried tapping it. I tried holding it. I just would keep running through it. And then it was just me running out the clock, running around in circles on the court.

24:40 Like, I actually want to see that real flam dunk contest with real people where one guy's just dunking every time and then the other guy just runs around for 24 seconds. Yeah. We were definitely doing different things wrong, but I was also doing things wrong where I would initiate the dunk, but I would miss the basket. So I, I think maybe you were hitting the button too late or something. I don't know.

25:05 Yeah. I don't know. I just want to say too, like, it's important to remember that even if you do this right, something I feel like I did do it right. You know, like I figured out like, okay, just remember which ones make you go in the right direction, which ones make you go down the middle. Even when you do it right, it's not the right way to do this mode. Slam dunk contest was just weirdly executed in the game itself just because of what it's reduced to.

25:29 And it doesn't feel good to just like do nothing particularly special to watch a pretty cool animation where again, like the only thing that changes the score is based on when you release the button in relation to where you are with the hoop. I would think for a guy who's like air Jordan, right? Like his hang time is everything that they could have, you know, even made this a little more cartoonish and had him really like when you are in the air for your dunk.

25:58 That's the time where like I'm thinking about that diving freestyle minigame in track and field to where like that's the time where like you're in the air that you can get crazy with like doing different things on the D pad, right? Or pressing different buttons and like different things happen. And like, yeah, they're not real dunks, right? Like maybe you could get him to do the, you know, where he palms the ball and he swings it. I forget what that's called. The windmill or whatever. And he swings it all over his hand. And so like maybe you could do that, right? But then you can also just do fun things to like shift it between your legs or something or pass the ball to your other hand.

26:35 And it's like so many other games have done that with with hang time like skater died did it on the half pipe and stuff like that that I'm surprised that they didn't do that here with Jordan where it was like, you know, you get the same view.

26:47 But then when you go for the jump, it splits into like this, you know, cool animation where you're more close up. And you are like slowly getting, you know, you're in like slow-mo and that's your time to do something really cool. Yeah, that'd be cool. And, you know, I'm thinking of that not like as a genius. I'm thinking of that as like this is something that's done, you know, like in other games. Like it seems like it'd be like in the time. Like they had other references. It's not like, oh, you have to wait till NBA 2K10 to get that kind of control scheme. It's like, no, it's being done in NES games.

27:22 I'm glad. I'm very thankful that you preemptively shut down anyone that would call you a genius for that. I just wanted to make sure that people didn't credit me on the wiki or anything. Yeah, you knew that people, all the listeners across the world are right now like shouting what a genius you are. You had to put that, you know, nip that in the bud.

27:46 Right, right off the bat because, you know, my ego, I can't handle that. You know, I can't handle people calling me a genius. It's too much pressure. The next mode is the three-point shootout with Larry Bird versus another Larry Bird to the point where it's just a guy. You know, even if you pretend like it's another person, why is he wearing the same jersey? He's wearing his numbers. It's like you can't get away with this stuff elsewhere.

28:11 But also like you wouldn't want Michael Jordan to verse Larry Bird in a three-point shootout because that's what the one-on-one mode is reserved for, right? It's like God forbid they also compete in a slam dunk competition or a three-point shootout, right? It's like, no, let's get them a little uncomfortable, right? Especially if Michael's supposed to be better at the slam dunk competition. Make it harder to be Larry Bird in a slam dunk comp.

28:34 Yeah, that's what makes me think, though, that you do have those differences in stats or probabilities when you play one-on-one. Because it makes me feel like, okay, they deliberately want Larry Bird to be presented as the free-throw guy or the three-point guy and Michael Jordan to be presented as the slam dunk guy.

28:56 So they won't put them together because they're like, okay, it's even if you're doing just a slam dunk competition and it's even if you're doing just a free-throw competition. And then if you're playing, you get to pick, well, which advantage do you want?

29:11 Yeah, I would say this is also potentially a contractual thing, right? Where, like, they got there to sign their names, but they're like, oh, but I will not go up against Michael in a slam dunk contest. Mr. Jordan. But he's even called Michael in Space Jam. They don't call him Mr. Jordan. I just think it's weird, like, saying Larry for Larry Bird. Well, I'm never going to say Larry. I'm always going to say Mr. Bird. Okay, so you no-show respect. You know what? I think that's kind of lame, you know? Well, I think you just don't know what to call Larry Bird because he didn't have a Space Jam movie.

29:49 Yeah, had he had a Space Jam movie, right, exactly. Mr. Bird. What would they call Larry Bird anyway? What's, like, Larry Bird's nickname? I wonder. I don't know best of all that well. Big Bird. I mean, he kind of is, right? He might be, for all we know, he might be the guy in the Big Bird costume.

30:06 Hold on. Larry Bird nicknames. I'm also looking at it. Kodak, Larry Legend. The hick from French Lick. God. And, yeah, that's it. That's the only three. I like Larry Legend. So, yeah, we'll refer to them as Michael and Larry Legend.

30:30 That case is closed now. Let's talk about the three-point shootout because, you know, this one, a little more fleshed out, right? Like, you actually see some cool stuff. Like, they have the cart with the balls that you see wheeled out during, like, the halftime competition where it's like, you know, this guy's got to make the shot from all the way from half court. And if he does it in under 30 seconds, we're going to give him a car, right? And then the guy makes the shot and then it goes to a viral video. You know, they have those carts. Yeah. So, that's a long way to say, like, wow, what attention to detail. Well, you know, I have – not to derail us, but I have an issue with these carts.

31:09 We can talk about it later after we've talked about it. My problem with the carts is that it feels like, you know, they were like, okay, they could have just easily had, like, okay, a ball just appears in your hand over and over again, right? But they're like, okay, but that's kind of, you know, we need some more immersion than that. Put some more work into it. It wouldn't make sense if the ball just appears in your hand over and over again. So, how would the ball get there? What if they're on these carts and you can, you know, grab them off these carts?

31:33 Fine. But then instead of having, you know, four carts on the court, they still make the cart disappear. And then the cart respawns. They spawns. So, they've created the same problem by trying to solve the problem of the ball spawning. Now a whole cart full of balls spawns all over the place. And I just thought that was weird. Why not just have them already on the court?

31:53 Well, don't you think it's another Larry Bird wheeling them out? Well, I don't see that. I don't see that happening. I would see it. Yeah. I mean, although, you know, I've heard that, you know, Bird is just a drone by the government made to spy on basketball. Yeah. Larry Bird's aren't real. Yeah. That's true.

32:12 To talk about the actual mode for a second, it's exactly what you think a three-point shootout would be. You start, you make your way around the half court and you have a certain amount of time and you have to make as many three throws, I'm going to call them. Three throws. You know, like, that's my savvy word. That's my mixing of two things. But you have to make these shots, okay? And when you make these shots, you get a point and you only have a certain number of balls per cart and then the carts magically spawn in the other locations when it's time.

32:42 Then you go to there and you try to make it around. They're not worth more points in certain locations. It's just once you run out of balls in this area, you have to go to the next area. However, going to the other areas didn't feel any different to me from, like, a timing release point. Like, you're still on that line for, you know, like, right on the three-point line. So I have to imagine that, like, that's measured from such a way. It's always the same distance no matter where you are on the circle.

33:10 So it felt like... On the outer, it's not quite like that. But functionally, in the game, it feels like that. You're right. Yeah. I guess what I mean is, like, I never felt like I was, like, relieved to now be, like, dead on center, right? I wasn't like, oh, yeah, this is going to make it so much more obvious when I should, you know, shoot the ball, right? It's like it doesn't... The camera perspective doesn't make it harder nor easier to do this minigame. And so therefore, I question why you move around at all.

33:41 However, they do work it into the timing thing of, like, how much time you have. Because once you release the ball, you have to go, you know, run over to the next area. So I like that. You know, there's a little psychology to it, if you will. Yeah. But other than that, yeah, I didn't really feel like there was any... I'm sure there is, but I could not get the feel for what is a good release time for these. It just seemed like I was doing the exact same timing, and it was... I was getting different results.

34:16 Yeah. I also felt that way, you know, throughout a lot of the game. But that was actually a question I had. I was curious to what you guys thought about, you know, with games like this. Like, I did notice once in a while that it felt like there were different release times. Maybe not in this mode, but, like, depending on where I was on the court, different release times that were important.

34:34 But it never felt enough, like, to really make me feel like it was anything other than, like, shoot the ball. And, you know, maybe it'll go in and maybe it won't. Like, it doesn't feel like there's any of my skill or lack thereof that's translating to whether or not I hit the basket. And that's kind of something I never really fully understand about basketball video games in general.

34:59 Like, I've never really played many of them, so I was wondering if you guys have and know of the more modern ones. Where, like, what... I mean, the main element of basketball is making a basket. And if that is reduced to just getting open and making a shot and hoping that, like, the RNG gives you a good shot, that, to me, seems like it's missing something. Yeah. Like, so with more modern basketball games, there's a lot more, like, visual cues that can tell you, like, how you can adjust your shot after you miss. Like, you can see that, like, oh, I hit the backboard, like, super hard and it just bounced out. Like, I'll have to take a little bit off of it. Or you'll just miss entirely. But other than that, there's usually, like, a visual, like, gauge.

35:55 And, like, the timing will change how much of the gauge you fill. And then each player has a different, like, sort of tolerance for how well you need to shoot to actually make it a good shot, with better players having a wider net for that. And then there's also just, like, is anybody, like, hanging on top of me? Because you're obviously going to shoot better when you don't have a guy in your face. So in more modern games, there's a lot more that you can base your next move on. Like, there's more information. Whereas this, like, you either miss a little bit to the left or a little bit to the right, or you go straight in.

36:40 Yeah. Okay. I get that now, especially with the more modern stuff, that that level of complexity feels like that you can get, like, actually a feel for it, where it'll start to feel like basketball. I just never fully get some of these older games, even some, like, hockey games and stuff. I mean, I know there's a lot more to these sports than just shooting. But, like, if, like, basketball, such a major component of playing basketball, is aiming,

37:08 that skill in these older games just does not translate to me at all. That's why I, you know, there must be something I'm missing, because people who, a lot of people who like basketball and like sports games liked these games. So for me, I'm just, I'm just confused on the appeal of, like, a shootout mode in one of these games.

37:28 Well, I think it's two things first. You know, it's like, they're NBA players, so we're expecting them to make most of the shots, right? Like, you know, I'm not saying that they should make every shot guaranteed, because that'd be really boring. But, like, we're also not expecting them to, you know, miss layups for the most part or stuff like that. So, you know, these things, you know, there's an expectation there.

37:48 But, you know, I'm going to say that I actually did feel like the release time mattered on this, like where you let go of the ball. I do feel like if you're at the, like, top of your jump and you release the button, I did feel like more times I was making the shot than not making it. And that could be entirely in my head. But if you release that ball, like, early on in the jump, you're guaranteed to miss it.

38:13 And if you do it after you're on your way down, you're also pretty much guaranteed to miss it. So I did feel like, you know, maybe it was a little too precise where you feel like, you know, you're in the top of your jump and you're still missing it. Or maybe they do program it to, like, even if you are perfect, you're still going to miss it. Like, which I think would be a mistake. But maybe that's what they did.

38:33 Overall, though, I do feel that as long as, you know, there's some kind of built-in mechanic there that, like, the arc of your jump and where you release, if that actually does matter, which I personally felt like it did, that's enough for me in these older games. You know, Double Dribble had that, too, if you remember. You know, it was about where you release the ball on your jump. As long as they have that, that's enough for me here. And I think that's, like, the kind of enjoyment people would have gotten back then or even just now in these style of games.

39:03 However, the three-point shootout is still just like a, you know, there's no real reward for this or the slam dunk contest. Like, it just, you just keep playing on, I suppose. And so these things all just eventually just feel like warm-ups for the true one-on-one mode where it's Larry versus Michael. Yeah, even though, like, in the slam dunk, they change how the game works. But other than that, I agree.

39:32 Yeah, it would have been cool if they would have taken the slam dunk stuff and somehow worked it into the one-on-one, you know? Like, I'm sure it would have just been exclusive to Michael, but, you know, for that reason, they probably didn't consider it. But, like, if there were actual, like, cool inputs to do, it'd be fun to see them make fun dunks. Like, you know, the appeal of NBA Jam and stuff like that is the flair. There's no flair in this game. It's a pretty boring game. It's got, yeah, it has no style. No style at all. And the whole presentation is like that. The only style in the game is when you do dunks. Yeah, and as far as I'm concerned, there are no dunks in this game.

40:14 So, yeah, for me, I feel like the only appeal that I could see that puts this over other basketball games is Larry Bird and Michael Jordan. Michael and Larry Legend. Oh, right, yeah, Mike and Larry. Mike or Michael? Michael. Mikey. And then Larry. Larry Legend. It's Michael and Like Mike. That feels unbalanced, too, though. We need to give... Is that Lil' Bow Wow? Yeah. Lil' Bow Wow.

40:40 Yeah, we need to give Michael Jordan, like, you know, a nickname. I think the manual does a good job of singing both of their praises differently and equally. You know, where it's like, oh, he's good at this, and he's good at this, and they both feel like, oh, who am I going to pick? Well, we all know that, like, in the 80s, like, Michael Jordan's nickname was just Jumpin' Jordan. There you go. We all know that. Of course I know that. Yeah. Would you believe me if I said that this game is a sequel?

41:14 No. You liar. Well, you're going to have to, because the original game is... See, they did something clever here. In this game, it's Michael Jordan versus Larry Bird. What is this game called again? Jordan versus Bird. One-on-one. Right. Now, they flipped it, and the original game is one-on-one, Dr. J versus Larry Bird. Oh. I see. So, Dr. J, you know, who I guess could be Michael Jordan's nickname, too, right? Like, I know it's been taken, but theoretically, he could be another Dr. J if he got a PhD. It's not him. I understand. Absolutely. Of course. But since we were fishing for nicknames, I thought I'd give it a shot. Anyway, that was a computer game. It never came to any consoles or anything like that, but that was a computer game.

42:03 And I guess it did well enough that Electronic Arts was like, yeah, let's make another one, but release it for more consoles. So, that's how you get Jordan versus Bird here. And Larry Bird obviously is in, like, legacy editions of the NBA, like, 2K games and stuff like that, where they start to include, like, great basketball players. But he never got, like, his own game, and I feel like that's a shame. But Michael Jordan obviously does get some of his own games. We have Michael Jordan in Flight, which is, believe it or not, that is the title of the game. It came out in 1993. It's a flight sim. Only for computers. It's a flight sim. Only for computers. And it's not a flight simulator.

42:45 That would be funny, though. I could imagine that, you know, the misdirection. You just play as Michael Jordan, like, flying to L.A. for a game. He's just a passenger. Oh, as a passenger. Okay. But it's a game with only Michael Jordan, if you can believe that. There's no NBA license players or teams otherwise, so it's just Michael, and it's a three-on-three basketball match, but one of them has Michael Jordan. Oh, okay. So there are other players. That's not very fair. That could have worked as if they were all Michael Jordan, and these games just have a problem with, like, having clones.

43:21 I thought that they were looking at this game, and they're like, oh, they did two players? We'll do even one better. We'll just do one player. Only one player playing basketball. Just free throws. The problem is, is that Michael understood, like, you know, merchandising and licensing and stuff like that, so he actually never allowed himself to be in any of those NBA games with every other player. So, you know, if you look at, like, NBA Jam, you famously cannot pick Michael Jordan because he wouldn't allow his likeliness in the game, but Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are in NBA Jam. So did they sign off on that? Like, did they write in to the president and be like, we want to put you in our game?

44:00 Which is weird, because I guess that... I don't know. Does that mean that he just wasn't a part of the Players Association? Because it's usually... I mean, now we're just getting into the weeds of sports games, but it's like, usually you have to sign a contract with the league and then with the Players Association for their likenesses. So I don't know how that worked. I'm pretty confident I can dig up an article on this and put it in the show notes. So let's make a note of that. I'll put it in the show notes. Do it.

44:25 After Michael Jordan and Flight, we have Michael Jordan Chaos in the Windy City, which is a side-scrolling action video game starring Michael Jordan in which, right before Scotty Pippen's charity game, all of Jordan's teammates have been abducted by the mad scientist Maximus Cranium, and now Michael has to travel through the Windy City, Chicago, to save the Chicago Bulls, which obviously are not named, but they are. That is the team, and he has to save them. In one issue of Nintendo Power, all 12 staff members that were voting voted it in one of the worst games of all time. Wow. Well, what does he do? Does he throw basketballs? What's his attack? He can slam dunk.

45:16 Well, he slam dunked a ball onto someone's head? Well, he's got a sidekick that carries around a backboard and hoop, and he has to get into position right above an enemy before Michael Jordan can do his slam dunk attack. Otherwise, what's he going to aim at? It's very similar to the game we just recently played, Flying Dragon the Secret Scroll, where Michael is collecting keys and defeating enemies. And different basketballs, such as the bomb ball or the freeze ball, are used to attack the enemies. Wow.

45:53 Obviously, I don't need to tell you that Michael was in Space Jam, but Space Jam got a video game, too. It's pretty good at that. It's on PC and PlayStation. I remember the PC version because there's a minigame during the halftime where you have to be Bugs and Daffy going back to Michael's house to get his shoes. I just thought that was really good. I thought that was a great use of not just making an NBA Jam-like game, but also incorporating some of the plot into the game. So every game, you have to go get his shoes.

46:24 Yeah. I think, actually, maybe they change what minigame it is. Okay. But- Now, is Michael better in the second half because of his shoes? No. Oh. No. I think it is a continuity error, though, right? Like, he must have had the shoes. You should have to get them before the game. Yeah. Otherwise- But maybe he, like- You can't play basketball in socks. Maybe he, like, ruined one of his shoes, like, at the beginning of the game.

46:50 So, like, he has it for the first half, but then, like, oh, shit, I need new shoes before we start again, and then they go get the other shoes. That's probably the best, like, word of God. Yeah. And Michael Jordan's most famous video game appearance is in Barkley's Shut Up and Jam Gaten, where it's the RPG video game- Oh, my God. I forgot about that. Set in 2053, where a chaos dunk has been performed in Manhattan, killing millions of people. What? And Barkley is blamed for the chaos dunk and is hunted down by none other than Michael Jordan, who leads the b-ball removal department.

47:31 Now, it's an incredible game. It's a fan-created RPG-style game that did get a Kickstarter for a sequel. The sequel was going to be titled The Magical Realms of Turninog, Escape from Necron 7, Revenge of Kukalain, the official game of the movie Chapter 2 of the Hoops Barkley Saga. It sounds like you're on, like, an AI website to, like, describe, like, an AI-generated video game. This is a game that Mike and I would bond over just laughing at in college. So, yeah. Yes. Because it's very real. That's the other crazy part.

48:11 Yeah. There's a lot of negative b-ball energy happening. You know. Didn't it kill millions of people? Yes. They did kill millions of people. Unfortunately, for those looking forward to the sequel, even though the Kickstarter was successfully funded, the game was canceled and is now in development hell.

48:28 So there is, I believe they were nice enough to release the source code for it. So if anybody wants to finish that game, by all means do it, because somebody paid, like, $112,000 to fund it. And then credit Nostalgia for your, like, for why you actually finished the game for them.

48:47 Would you rather have the sequel to Barkley Shut Up and Jam Gaiden or the Sushi Pinball canceled game that we referenced earlier this month? I mean, I'm going for Shut Up and Jam Gaiden, but I can understand that it's a coin flip for some. I think based on what everything we just heard, I got to go with that as well. I mean, how could I not want that? There's only one thing we want to do now, and that is the final thing that we must do in every Nostalgia episode. We must decide if Jordan vs. Bird 101 is going to be on the Essential Games list. Sean, your vote.

49:26 This game, while it sort of points to future, like, cool versions of sports games, like an NBA Street or, you know, an NFL Street, it doesn't do anything particularly well. It doesn't have the style that is needed for a game like that.

49:54 And really the only selling point of this game is the two likenesses that they licensed. If this were a game with basketball player A and basketball player B, it would have zero upside. So I'm going to go with not Essential. Joe? Well, if it wasn't for that randomly spawning basketball cart, I would have put this on the Essential Games list. But that basketball cart, I mean, let that be a lesson to you, game developers.

50:27 No, but in all seriousness, I'm not going to go on about the same things I go on about a lot of different sports games. It's just, this didn't, I don't think this did anything better than Double Driple or that other game we played, which I can't even remember the name of, which I thought did things better. It was, you know, it was nice to have the star power of Michael Jordan and Larry Bird, but

50:48 not enough to get it on the Essential Games list. I agree with everything you guys are saying. And I think also, just another thing to keep in mind is we played both Double Dribble and Hoops, thank you for reminding us of that, Sean, you know, that are two different styles of games, right? Double Dribble was going for the NBA experience and Hoops was going for the more like, you know, urban playground experience.

51:13 And here with Jordan versus Bird, I don't think we actually ever got a complete game. I think we got three like mini games, even the one on one is really just like a demo of like what should have been a more fleshed out thing. Like it doesn't feel like there's enough to being Larry Bird or Michael Jordan in that particular mode, the mode they're selling you to, to make me think that this is even a complete game. So if I don't feel like the game is even complete, there's no way it's going on the Essential Games list. So for that reason, I'm out. Like Shark Tank. I don't know why I just did that.

51:48 I'm an investor in Jordan versus Bird now. Sell. Michael Jordan is and was much more popular and famous than Larry Bird, right? Or is that just because of when I grew up and it was more Michael Jordan time than it was Larry Bird time? He's got to be one of the most famous people alive. I mean, I think you may be underestimating how famous Larry Bird was in the day in like the sports world, but yes, you're like, obviously Michael Jordan is more famous.

52:19 Yeah. I think that's another reason why it felt a little weird that it wasn't Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. They felt like they're more on the same level of fame. Whereas Michael Jordan, he's just like, everybody knows Michael Jordan. And that's true. Everybody just knows Michael Jordan. Just like everybody knows Nostalgia and our Twitter handle at NostalgiaCast and our website,

52:38 NostalgiaCast.com and our Patreon, patreon.com slash nostalgia. Everyone just knows these things. So I really just wasted everyone's time by saying them again. And your breath. Yeah. I'm wasting my own breath here. In fact, the whole episode, you could argue, was a waste of breath because everybody already knew everything we were going to say. That's how in tune with the listeners we are. Yeah. And if you want to get our episodes ahead of time, you can head to thelibraryofbabble.com. Stop it. And from there, you can find every, not only every episode, we're going to have everything we're ever going to say is somewhere on that website.

53:11 And everything you're going to say in reaction to Joe telling you that. Phalanges. Yes. And every slight variation of things that you're not going to say. Scotty Pippen. But I am going to say this, and it's been destined to say this in the Library of Babel, but also just because it's in the show notes here. The next game that we are going to play is The Adventures of Dino Reiki. I think that's the only way to say that title.

53:34 And I don't know. I'm excited to get off the court and go back to the Dino Reiki style of video games that we've all been clamoring for. I always said, give me a game starring Dino Reiki, and I'll play it. Is it not Dino Reiki? No, Reiki. Reiki. Okay, just making sure. I don't know. R-I-K-I. What do you think? Could be Reiki. Just saying. Yeah, and it is a guy. I'd say Reiki for that, but just, I gotta, give me a week to mull it over.

54:03 All right, yeah. Mull it over. We'll decide at the beginning. Court will be in session at the beginning of the episode, and we'll decide for once and for all. And listeners, if you have an opinion on whether it's Dino Reiki or Dino Ricci, why don't you tweet at us, at NostalgiaCast. I'm Michael Esposito. You can find me at Esposito Film on Twitter, and we'll talk to you soon. Outro Music