198 · Cobra Triangle

• Speed and Skill are all that can save you
• NES Longplay
• Introductions
  • Bermuda Triangle
• Overview
  • Cobra Triangle is a racing, vehicular combat video game. The player races a cannon-equipped speedboat against other watercraft. The 25 stages of graduated difficulty vary in objectives: winning races, saving swimmers, and defusing bombs.
• Gameplay
  • Cobra Class Speedboat
    • Controls
      • First time we’re dealing with a boat.
      • How do you want a boat to control?
      • There’s a mixture of momentum and start/stop
        • A bit of all or nothing
    • Power-Ups
      • Gradius Style
      • Increase speed/add missles and force field
      • Bread and butter of the game.
      • Should be more available or reworked based on a % completion of the previous level
  • Different objectives
    • Racing (not really against other boaters, but against time)
    • Capture/Save
    • Collect the pods
    • Survive the obstacles (counting the waterfall stage here too)
    • Break the Targets
    • Boss Fights
      • Kind of like a shmup, but I think they could’ve embraced it even more.
    • The objectives do get harder the 2nd and 3rd time around
  • Diddy Kong Racing
• Sequels and Spinoffs
  • Rare Replay (Xbox Game Pass)
• EGL
  • The boat and the precision keep this out for me
• Next week -

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Cobra Triangle, speed and skill are all that can save you.

00:19 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. Guys, be honest with me. When you saw that we were playing a game called Cobra Triangle, you must have thought at least somewhat that it was going to be a playoff on the Bermuda Triangle. Well, all right. That's actually not what I was thinking. I still don't know what Cobra Triangle is really referencing here. I figured with Cobra in the name, I thought it was going to be like some kind of military thing because, you know, snakes show up in titles in those kinds of games sometime. But I have no idea what this means. My original thought was similar. Like maybe just because like Cobra Command type thing or something.

01:10 But once I saw there was water, I did think Bermuda Triangle. Once I saw that there was water. Yeah. But that had nothing to do with the Cobra Triangle. Whenever I see water, I think about the Bermuda Triangle. So now I think that the triangle part is just because like, you know, boats are slightly triangular. Yeah. And the Cobra part is because there's a Cobra in the wake. When you look back behind a speedboat, it looks like a Cobra head. Oh, that's fun. Is it not that like are Cobra like a type of boats? Like, is that a possibility? I suppose. I don't know enough about boats. I'm not rich enough to own one. Joe's pretty confident about that. I have no idea. Oh.

01:51 Something about that. Just, you know, maybe I just thought like even if maybe your boat is the Cobra in this game, like for all we know, it's just nicknamed the Cobra. And the triangle part is like just a, you know, it's a shape, just a fun shape reference. What's your favorite shape? It's just a reference to shapes, you know, a sick reference.

02:13 Why does it feel like we're done with the episode? No, we're not done with the episode. I feel like this is the post show. I think what I was really wanted this to be about was just about the Bermuda Triangle because that is something that like as a kid you're told to be like actively afraid of. Like we need to solve whatever's going down at the Bermuda Triangle. But then like when you become an adult, you just don't think about that anymore. I mean, it's the same with whirlpools and that's in this game too. Like I was deathly afraid of whirlpools.

02:40 Whirlpools and quicksand. Yeah, exactly. They're everywhere but also nowhere. But like, I mean, has anyone seen a whirlpool before? Has anyone seen a whirlpool and quicksand in the same room at the same time?

02:57 All right, I'm going to move into the game. Please, please do. Joe's right. We are bordering like a nonsensical conversation. I don't know. Cobra Triangle is a – I'm pulling this right from Wikipedia. I didn't come up with this. It's a racing vehicular combat video game. I think that sounds awesome.

03:15 I think it's also a couple of other genres too while we're at it, but we'll get into that when we talk about the game. Anyway, in Cobra Triangle, the player races a cannon-equipped speedboat against other watercrafts. The 25 stages of graduated difficulty vary in objectives from winning races, saving swimmers, and diffusing bombs, and so much more. Guys, I feel like I described many games but also the idea that all of these games happen while you drive a boat.

03:46 Does that like – does that start the conversation at least enough for you guys? Should we just talk about the boat to begin with? I think so because it is – it's unexpected, you know? Like a speedboat. We haven't really had much with like a speedboat type game. You know, like this type of thing I would usually feel like would be a helicopter or a spaceship or a car or something. But it's an interesting choice to make a speedboat, and I think it – the way it controls sort of feels like a speedboat. So I think they – I think they had a nice match there. Yeah, so basically the game is RC Pro-Am but on water.

04:27 And yeah, the fact that they used a boat – I don't – I definitely have not played too many games in general, not even just in the realm of the NES, that your main form of movement is boat-based. So it definitely gets points for how unique the concept is. But it's not just a boat. Like the Wikipedia says, it's an armed boat. It has missiles and pew-pews. But also between levels, like it just turns into a helicopter, which I think could have been explored in gameplay a bit. Instead of just a way to get from pool to pool or whatever is happening here.

05:13 So I don't know. That's how I see it. I thought it was really funny that the helicopter element of it really does look like – even in the world of the game, like that was designed as just utility to move the boat around. Instead of hitching it to your trailer, just use the little helicopter to get it into the water. Or just like cutting it to – cutting to black and like assuming that, okay, now you're in a different place. It's like, well, we have to explain how the boat gets to this other body of water.

05:40 Everyone would be so confused if you don't see it go there. Yeah. Right. Never mind that the helicopter would eliminate most of the challenge in this game if you could just use it during sections like jumping over waterfalls and, you know, avoiding, you know, armed artillery.

05:57 Right. But, you know, Joe, I want you to talk a little bit about how this particular boat, this – you know, we're going to call it the Cobra – controls because, you know, as you mentioned, this is our first time we're dealing with a boat being the main character. And obviously like, you know, the water itself plays a large role in how you control this boat. So if you wouldn't mind, just talk a little bit about how it feels to be the Cobra. Yeah. Well, right off the bat, I think that this is – you know, it's just – this is one of those games that makes me think like why can't more games get the feel of the way you control whatever, your vehicle, your person or whatever, as good as this game did. Like this feels smooth.

06:44 It's one-to-one. It never lags. It doesn't feel like you're trudging ever, if that makes any sense. So I think like right off the bat, I want to give my kudos to this game because I think this feels – it's one of the few games that we've had that feels beyond the NES. You know, it feels like, you know, you get air off of ramps, you skip off of waves, you really have a lot of fluid motion in this, and I think it works really nicely.

07:10 The other thing that you'll probably notice right away when controlling this is it has that control scheme where your perspective as the player doesn't change. But – so like whenever you're – when you're turning right, you have to think about the fact that you're turning to the driver's right. Yeah, tank controls. If you're moving back towards the camera, you have to kind of reverse everything in your head. So like that takes some getting used to, at least for me. It always does in games like that, but it's not, in my opinion, it's not necessarily like a huge flaw. I think it's just something that like I'm not used to and it takes some time to get used to.

07:44 Yeah, I think the – I think that the tank controls and the isometric view really work well together. I mean this – again, I mentioned RC Pro-Am because this is, I think, built on like the same code, I imagine. I thought that that felt really fluid as well when we talked about that game. And now all it's doing is sort of like messing with momentum a bit.

08:12 And I just think that like this – that whole perspective and control scheme, like just what Joe was saying, it kind of makes it feel a bit more timeless because it's not like – we're not worried about like, oh, this jump feels kind of stiff or anything. It's just like one-to-one.

08:37 Right, and I think, you know, some people who like pick up this game and start playing it might be inclined to say that like, no, it's very difficult to control this boat and also like, you know, because it is a tank, like be a shmup at the same time. You know, like it's very hard to do both of those things in this space. But I think something about the way that the momentum of moving the boat and the aliveness of the water, you know, like even though it's not perfectly demonstrated to you with the pixel art, I do feel like they're giving a good amount of momentum to the waves themselves and to how it would be in a speed boat when you're charging all that, that you just kind of get that timing down with practice.

09:25 You know, it's not that the – it's not that it's hard to control the Cobra. Yes, at times like you may have given yourselves too many speed upgrades and therefore, you know, you're kind of punished for being – for going too fast. But I feel like overall just the control of the Cobra and the way that they built the physics, let's call it, of how it moves in all of the water stages is one, it's consistent, which is nice. But also too, it's something where you're rewarded for playing it more often

09:57 and kind of like getting that timing down. I'm thinking specifically about when you first get to like the obstacle course stages where there's like log flumes and stuff like that coming at you. That can be a very hard thing if you're just charging your way through those stages, right? Oh, yeah. I mean like there's a difference between a game being difficult and a game just having poor controls making it difficult.

10:23 And this is sort of that – this is an example of that where it's almost – for me it was almost second nature controlling this vehicle, but that does not mean that this game was easy in any way because of the way that the levels are designed. And sometimes I feel like they're designed kind of unfairly. But you're right, Mike. Like when you – if you do keep playing it, you will pick up on it. And it is those optical course levels, if we want to call it that,

10:52 that were the biggest frustration inducer for me. Yeah. I think that – I think as far as the – as far as controlling the boat, I think it's difficult in the manner that they intended it to be difficult. You know, it's not difficult because of poor controls. It's difficult because they wanted it to be difficult, you know.

11:11 Yeah, like you almost need a certain – it would just be too – it wouldn't be interesting enough if the game just was like, yeah, that's the boat in it and it just moves at, you know, a same fluid speed that makes it easy to navigate around. Like I understand that, that it does kind of need some kind of maneuverability challenge to make it interesting to be the boat. You know, you're not just on land in a car going in a straight line. You're in a body of water.

11:37 And that's why the turning is really interesting with the boat here because I feel like even just the pixel art for the turns sells it enough that I feel like it's all happening not only very fluid, but in a way that like it's easy for my brain to digest. Like, you know, how I can avoid obstacles and how I can line myself up with the ramps and the power-ups and such. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine playing this game if like the controls were actually based on your perspective instead of the boat's perspective? I think it would just feel, it either wouldn't feel boat-like or it would just be completely disorienting, I think.

12:25 Yeah, I think because there's so much like turning and flipping around and, you know, suddenly you're going one way and then you're turning the other way. I can't even picture how the game would do that, you know? Like, what if you're kind of halfway between one, you know, there's only four directions on the D-pad. Yeah. So like it feels weird to even imagine it that way.

12:46 And then the second part to, you know, all of the reasons to make the boat different, right, to be its own character and stuff like that, are these power-ups, which are handled pretty interesting in this game where there are these pods that are in certain levels that you collect them and each one that you collect either has like a number one or a number two over it

13:07 and at the bottom of your screen there are different lists of power-ups and it's all handled very similar to how Gradius handled its power-ups where, you know, if you collect a pod, you can select that power-up or you can keep collecting pods to get a potentially better power-up but you can only, once you spend your power-up, you spend your power-up points and you go back to the beginning and are forced to like recollect.

13:33 I know it sounds like a lot, but really if you just think about how Gradius and Lifeforce handled it, it's kind of funny to see that show up in what is described as a boat racing game, but I think it works here, you know, in like the same reason why it worked in Gradius. You're given the challenge in your choice of like what you think you need

13:53 for the particular stage and also for upcoming stages, right? Like I think the first time I played through this game, I just wanted to be faster and then I realized when I got to like the boss fights, I was like, I need to be stronger. Like I'll never take these things down. So, you know, you have to decide that stuff. What did you guys think about the, you know, not just the power-ups in general, but specifically that mirroring of the Gradius element to it? I agree that like the first playthrough that I did with this game, like I was kind of not paying attention to the action bits of it.

14:32 That I was just sort of treating it as a more of a, I'm running an obstacle course and I just need to get to the end and less like I need to deal damage like with like any of the bosses.

14:48 And I still think that like when I, the levels that focus more on maneuvering and speed, like I like those better, but I was able to appreciate the more action focused bits once I did start paying attention to my power-ups and actually focusing on getting like a wider spray or like missiles or things like that. It was a, it was a bit more fun when you, it's always more fun when you're, when you're powerful. So it was an aspect of the game that I, I guess I didn't realize I was missing until I played it two or three times. Yeah. I actually was kind of the same way I got to the, so I got to like the second boss without really doing much upgrading of like my missiles and everything.

15:35 And could not, I was like locked. I was like, okay, there's no way I'll ever get past this unless I play for a really long time. And then when I started over and played that way, it, yeah, it makes a huge difference. And it really feels like you're customizing your, you know, you're customizing your character. It feels like RPG-like, but it's not, yeah, it's not, I like, I like the fact that it's not as simple as like,

15:58 okay, where do I want to spend my point? That you have to do like a skill-based thing to get yourself, like just to select what you want to upgrade. Then you upgrade it, then you got to do that again. It like kind of adds to the, to like how important those things feel and how like your appreciation of them after, after spending like your, spending your time and skill and effort to get them. Yeah, between what's going on for the particular stage that you're in, because remember the objective keeps changing.

16:29 So between that, the collecting of the power-ups and deciding your power-ups, and then also the short burst nature of each individual level, there really is a frantic nature to the game, right? There's a lot going on when you're actually playing it. And then they give you kind of these, these moments where it's like, okay, stage is over, here's four seconds to like get it together. And then we're going into the next new objective, learn and adapt quickly.

16:58 I think that the power-ups, you know, make the whole game a lot more interesting. If you, if you played, if you even tried to play without them, I think you just get something that is either too hard or also just like takes away the, the fun of it, right? Like I think having a boat that shoots like missiles and, and shoots in like eight different directions and has a force field, like there's something cool and interesting about that. That's what gives some personality to this rare game.

17:27 But I think the, the way that you get the power-ups and I'm not suggesting that it needed to be like a, based on score or something like that, but the pods are only available in certain levels and they're given out kind of sparingly other than a particular level that is just called collect the pods, you know, which, which reoccurs. It's not like it's just one. That's like a bonus level. Yeah. It seems like a bonus level, but it's also like, that's your only moment.

17:57 And I feel like at that rate, like it should, it should almost because of, you know how, like when you create a character in a game and I think we had this with Nobunaga's ambition where you are creating your character based on certain attributes. And then you get to a particular set of skills and it's all of a sudden it's just like RNG decides what that is. And it's like, well, I don't like those results. So now I got to reset my whole character and make another one. I feel like the way that the power-ups are given out in this game, it could be an early thing where it's like, well, I didn't collect enough of those pods and I don't like my loadout. So I'm better off resetting than continuing.

18:39 And I'm not saying like that they needed to make them easier to collect or anything, but they should have been something that could be acquired, you know, throughout each of the stages. Now, I will mention the way that they handle power-ups in this is a lot better than how Gradius does. If you die, you do keep all your power-ups, which I think is a huge plus.

19:04 Maybe that was like their trade-off. Like you won't be able to collect a lot of these, but we're also not going to punish you for dying once. Like we're not going to strip you of every single power-up that you have.

19:14 So, you know, I guess I'm saying like, you know, maybe I'm talking myself out of it, but also like it was weird to see that like even in the first stage, you can go that entire thing without collecting a power-up. And then all of a sudden you're given a bunch and then there's two more stages where no power-ups can possibly be collected. It just doesn't feel like they're putting as much emphasis on the power-ups as say you need in this particular game. Yeah, I mean, I guess like one way that they could have done it was it's like score-based and that has like the added benefit of actually giving a reason to worry about score.

19:52 But unless they wanted to just do like more pickups or just like that, there are not always these pods that are trailing, that are trailing like the enemy boats that they just sort of like littered across the map. I don't know how they could have done it to sort of balance it out, but I do agree that it does feel kind of streaky where you can find them.

20:20 I don't hate that they're so scarce or like that they're only in those first, because they're in the first two levels. The first level you can get one or two of them and then the second level, if I'm remembering correctly, the collect the pods I think is the second level. Whenever the collect the pods is, you can get a bunch of them. And I don't hate it as long as the player is aware that like that those are the two levels. You know, like I feel like the first time you play it, it's kind of frustrating because you're like, OK, well, I didn't know that I was going to have to go six more levels before I was going to be able to upgrade anything again. That's annoying. But I feel like as long as like on your second playthrough.

20:56 Like with anything, with anything that that involves a strategy with any game, I think that like it's important in for as far as like fairness to the player that they know the rules. You know what I mean? They know like not that it's a rule, but like it feels like if you know that going in, I feel like it's kind of a cool mechanic where you're like, OK, the first the first level, I'll collect one or two.

21:18 Get what I want in the second level. OK, this is my time to like build myself as much as I can and like kind of like save up for the winter because in the next five levels, I'm going to need these power ups. So like, all right, this one I'm going to do this level is collect as many of these things as I can get my power ups. Now I got to use this to get me through to the next one, which will be a little while.

21:36 And I don't think that's such a bad thing. I just think that that like being blindsided by it doesn't give you the opportunity to like use it as a gameplay mechanic. But you don't think that to the to the other point I was making earlier that like so now that you know that it's available in the first two stages, if you don't perform well in those first two stages, you're just going to reset. Right. To make sure that you collect all the pods in the second stage, that you have a more well equipped boat going. I mean, I guess I see that and I don't see the like, you know, it's hard to see the like the incentive to not do that because it's so early in the game.

22:15 But, you know, it is also just like depends on how, you know, how you want to play the game. I mean, if you I don't know, it feels like that doing that kind of you're robbing yourself a little bit of playing the game as the way it was intended to be played.

22:31 But I get it like it's so early in the game. I mean, it's just like when, you know, if I'm trying to if I'm trying to beat a boss and I and I suddenly in like some other game and I suddenly like get my ass handed to me in the first 10 seconds. I'm like, OK, I'm just going to start. So I'm going to hit reset and start over. Like I get that. But yeah, I don't know. I think it just comes down to like if you want to like if the player wants to like let themselves play it that way.

22:54 Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. And again, like I don't think it has to be something where or it definitely shouldn't be something where, OK, you completed this stage. Here's your power up reward like that. That sticks. That's not fun. And that's not even like that's not necessarily like it's not that kind of game where you should be rewarded with a with becoming stronger because you completed a level. It should be something tied to skill because ultimately that's what this whole game is, right?

23:19 It's a test of skill. I mean, in some instances, like you're on you're not completing the level unless you have some modicum of skill. I mean, especially the ones with like waterfalls and whirlpools like that's skillful to be able to finish, you know, I guess without using a continue. Oh, definitely. Oh, so you're but you're saying like if you complete that level that it might be it might be worth giving out like a power up for that.

23:48 I mean, it doesn't seem counterintuitive. I think that it's no, I'm not. I'm not. I really honestly I could go one way or the other with this. I guess what I what I'm thinking is is like because it's a it's a game of like, you know, you're being tested by the objectives continuing to change and by how much you know how little damage you can take and stuff like that. That that the power ups being tied to a additional bonus that you can collect is arguably like more.

24:20 It's more cohesive to what the game is setting up for you than handing you these power ups, right? Like if they do it that way, it's almost like the the test is is being is being levied by the game, not by the players skill. So, yeah, I suppose I know what you're saying, too, because I feel like I mean, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I just feel like the way this game is just what it's trying to do is make it, you know, make it feel like you're you know, yeah, you're in control of how powerful you end up being. And like if you were to go the other route or like beating a level gives you a power up, then like always on the third level, you'd always have three power ups, you know, like you'd always be at this level of power.

25:03 Or at, you know, at this stage and as you go on, you it would kind of be like, well, I guess that also depends on that. I'd say like if it were some sort of like hybrid of the two, like you could have only done enough to get the one guaranteed for completing X level. Like you can still get more and be more powerful because you are skillful. But it would also alleviate the effect of, well, I I don't have any power ups. And now I'm in the middle of these these couple levels where they just don't hand them out at all.

25:42 It would it would sort of make it so that you're not immediately restarting just because of the power up situation that you're in at this specific point where you're already in a suboptimal state. I don't know. It's not entirely important. But if if if we want to debate the the philosophy of of power up acquirement, I guess it's it's it's it's in there. Yeah, no, I hear it. And I think that what you're saying works. I just think that that changes the game. So much like not not so much, but it changes the game as to like what I like. Here's like an analogy that, you know, I always like to have a Kingdom Hearts analogy every few episodes.

26:29 So in Kingdom Hearts one, you beat when you beat a boss, you get the you get the appropriate amount of experience points. And from those experience points, you get whatever levels you get. Sometimes you'll get you'll because it was a boss. It's a ton of experience. You get you get three or four levels and you, you know, or sometimes if you're further ahead, you get fewer levels or whatever, just depending on on where you are. And Kingdom Hearts two, they change that where when you beat a boss, you don't get experience. You get automatic like level up style, like level up worthy bonuses.

27:00 So it's like always in that game. When you beat this boss, you'll get this much health. And it's like all in like, which is fine. And I feel like it probably makes it easier for them to design the game in a fun way. But for me as the player, it does make me feel like I've lost a little bit of the freedom. I feel like no matter what, when I'm at this stage in the game, this is how much health I'll have. Whereas in Kingdom Hearts one, it was always cool for me to like, see like what the see the results of my grinding were like, oh my God, look how much health I have so early in the game. You know, so it's like, yeah, I can see it both ways. But yeah, that's where I'm coming from.

27:37 I also just think, you know, and we should move on to the other objectives here because this is going to lead well into it, is that ultimately the game is just giving you like a test of your skill, right? It's saying, okay, you'd completed the racing thing. Now you have to save a bunch of kids. Okay, you saved all the kids. Now you've got to survive the obstacle course. Okay, you saved the obstacle course. Now you've got to fight the Loch Ness Monster or whatever we want to call it.

28:05 It's continuing to test your skills in different ways. And so I feel like it is best to leave all choices of how to go about doing that, right, to the player. So for the, whether it's the power-ups or even just how you go about achieving saving the kids, it's about your strategy for it. So for some people, they would want, you know, for the save the kids thing,

28:30 you don't want the other boats picking up the kids. You want to have like a bunch of different firing directions. So this way you can fire from boats at all angles. But other people might say like, no, once a boat grabs your kid, if you're not fast enough to shoot down that boat, you're not going to be able to chase it down. And then you're going to guarantee that you lose that kid. So you want some speed.

28:49 I like that there's some freedom in how you choose these things. I mean, my strategy with the kids was just to let all the other ones get taken and just protect one kid. It's much easier to protect one kid. That's a guy who doesn't give a shit about high scores. And shouldn't. We have all said high scores don't matter. So I'm right there with you. You're playing. And it's how I do it in real life. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

29:31 Can we talk about the objectives, though? Because I feel like it's a funny thing when you're playing this game for the very first time. Maybe it spells it out more in the manual in the back of the box. But if you just start this game up, yeah, like the Loch Ness Monster thing on the front cover of the game is a little strange. And you're like, oh, maybe I'll go up against that thing or see it in the game. But the objective says race to the finish.

29:57 And there's all these other boats. And we are coming from the same developers who made RC Pro-Am. So I don't know about you guys, but I just assumed that this was about to be like a GP style thing where I'm like racing other boats and I can shoot them down if I want to. But ultimately, like I have to place. I have to get first place in this race. Yeah. And what they really meant was race against time.

30:20 Yeah, I definitely thought that this was going to be. Well, OK, but when I when I opened up the manual, I thought it was going to be a game where every level was a race and there was just going to be these weird obstacles in the way. But it was always going to be a race format. And then once I got to look that page that kind of outlined all of the different kinds of objectives, I'm like, oh, OK, this is, I guess, a bunch of mini games and racing is one of them. And then it turns out that racing really isn't any of them. Yeah. Unless you consider like time trials with with bots that aren't actually racing you a race.

31:05 But no, it was very surprising how much variety the game has. But also I did feel a little misled, especially, yeah, because it starts. It starts the first level is the race. So you could you could go through the first level of the game and not even understand what the rest of the game was going to be about. Yeah, it definitely was it was misleading for me as well, but maybe not as much so because I didn't I knew less. I didn't read the manual first. So I was just like booted it up and was like, oh, OK, a race. And I was like, OK, it's not a race.

31:43 But but in the in that first level, I did at first, like still think I was racing the whole first level. I was like, got to get in front of that guy. He looks like he's the one in the lead. And I get in front of him. I'm like, oh, there's three more people up there that I keep going because people just keep swanning ahead of you because it doesn't matter.

31:58 But yeah, I was also pleasantly surprised, I'll say, when when like some of the other some most of the other games came up and I was like, wow, I was not expecting this. I was not expecting to have to save a bunch of swimmers.

32:13 Yeah. And children. There's like children. Yeah. It does say save the children. Right. I thought it said save the people. I'm just trying to go with what you're saying. Yeah. Well, you know, I like to think that they're children because they can't swim. But they swim.

32:30 They're swimming. They're just getting kidnapped by other boats. There you go. OK, so wait, here's the thing. Just to just to focus on the racing thing for one more moment. And what's funny is, is like there's so much going on in this particular game at any given moment between you having to worry about the control of your boat and then what's going on with the other boats and the turrets and the quick turns that like that whole UI that's on the bottom. Like I knew it was there, but I wasn't really like looking at it that much or reading into it. And so I guess I just like assumed that it was keeping track of my place. But the thing that I thought was keeping track of my position was, I guess, how fast I'm going like that. You have a speedometer.

33:09 Yeah. I'm not really sure what use that is in the game, but I guess it's like a neat picture. It's very janky. But I mean, that also sort of I was in the same spot because we sort of had the same experience of our first playthrough where we weren't really paying attention to power ups. And so I I saw stuff flashing, but it didn't really matter to me because I was just, again, focused on maneuvering.

33:34 So, yeah, the fire, speed, missile and force like they were there, but I wasn't really paying attention to them. Yeah. It is actually as far as the speedometer. I I until right now, I never really looked at that. And I just assumed from the way it's moving. I thought it was a compass. Now I'm looking at it. I see that it's there's numbers and not like north, south, east, west or anything. But I just thought I was looking at it in my peripherals. I thought that was a compass. And it's just funny because like, what would the compass do for you? Yeah. Who cares? Who cares what direction you're going?

34:04 All right. Let's move on since we really want to talk about those saving the children. These particular stages, I'm going to lump them together. So there's capture and there's save. So there's capture the mines and save the children. And they are kind of the same idea. In one, you are going into somebody else's little like squared off area and taking their mines from them and bringing them over to your area to blow up. And then the save one is like you have your squared off area and other boats will try to come in and and steal your children.

34:39 And, you know, if they leave the square, if they so much as leave the square, I believe, like they are or the vicinity of the square. They're counted as like gone. No, they can get they have to get off screen. Yeah. Oh, no, you could. Yeah, you can go get them. But I feel like, you know, I felt like I saw a number of kids on my screen, but they were still like, you know, maybe maybe I'm making this up in my head. But like I thought I was I thought I was guarding everybody. And I would always see like gradually like the number count down a little bit.

35:13 Maybe. I know that you can go get them back and maybe it would add the number back. Right, right, right. It would add the number back, I think. That's what I'm saying is like if the boats can get the kids far enough away, but you still shoot them down, I feel like it might count them out. Like they do have to be in your square. No, so I'm looking at I'm just looking at the playthrough right now. It looks like just from counting it here, it looks like they have to be actually right off the screen before they take into the dungeons.

35:41 Yeah. But going to the going to the the mine destroyer part of this, like those levels like this was what I wanted them to develop this more because I really liked the pursuit aspect of like you're being chased. And it's not like you're being chased and they're going to kill you. It's that they want to steal the thing you're dragging. And this is the the mode that I think I'd have the most fun in if they just like develop this more because I think like while the AI isn't the best and at certain points the the boats chasing you will get stuck on geometry.

36:25 I found this much more fun than trying to keep all of the children in the in the square or trying to jump over waterfalls or racing inanimate boats like this was the more the most fun I had in the game. Yeah, it was a good one. I did. You know, it was it's one of those ones where I was like, wow, this is unexpected. We haven't really seen something like this on the NES. It's it's such like a classic type of competition. It's like almost like a capture the flag. Yeah, it I thought it worked really well. I will say that I think that I thought a couple more of them. I would I would personally I would say were tied for me for like what I had the most enjoyment. But yeah, this is this is up there for sure.

37:11 And it's interesting, too, because the the mine component is something that if you if you even bring it to the destruction place, you can't hang around there either because it will blow up on you and cause you to take damage, too. So there's a you know, there's a protected and get it to the zone. But also don't like don't get burned by your own your own saving.

37:36 Sean, you were talking about the geometry thing. And I think I know what you mean there. It is it is kind of upsetting to find out that the A.I. cannot figure out turning. And so it doesn't matter really what speed you can have zero speed or turbo boosts available to you. And as long as you just zigzag your way back to the base where the mines will be blown up, those boats will not catch you without fail. They cannot figure out the zigzag like they take the they take the path of most resistance, I suppose, to get to you.

38:10 Yeah. And I guess that's why I mean that, like it needed more development for it to be like, I guess I could play more. Or if there was if that was a higher percentage of what this game was and they also thought about it a bit more like I would be very happy. But I guess it's also the only mode of the game that actually needs to have any kind of artificial intelligence because everything else is just either pre-programmed patterns or just sort of they aim at you with turrets. So I get that that is probably the most janky application within these many games.

38:54 But but they do fix it a little bit in an unintended way that the A.I. doesn't get any smarter. But, you know, similar to it's 25 levels. So all of these objectives get repeated in one way or another, but they become a little harder the second and third times around. And I think it might be the third time around.

39:14 Not only does the landscape kind of have like a central blockade to where you're to where you're taking the mines, but there's multiple boats. So you can't just get away with zigzagging through one. You will have to cleverly outplay or at least pass the second boat. Yeah. So that it doesn't just, you know, so that it doesn't get you as well. Now, granted, once you pass it, obviously, then you're in the clear because you can just zigzag through that one, too.

39:40 But it is a way to they also do get stuck. They do get stuck on the that's what I meant by getting stuck on the geometry. Like they will just run into that little island and not know how to unstick themselves. It's pretty funny to see.

39:56 Also, they have eventually they add like a whirlpool in and stuff that's like doing. So you have to like think about, you know, you can't just blindly zigzag anymore. You have to like think about why I might have to go straight for a minute and then it might catch up to me. Also, maybe I'm just bad at this, but I still felt like even though I knew the zigzag thing also still felt like I was like, you know, it would it would freak me out when something was coming up right behind me. I was like still like on the edge of my seat. And, you know, it still felt like a challenge to me. Maybe I just, you know, it's stressful in a good way. Yeah. High stakes.

40:30 The whirlpools is something that you will also find in the what I'm going to call the obstacle course stages. I'm going to count the waterfall stage in this like obstacle course as well, since technically it's just timing up your ramps and dodging whirlpools as well.

40:47 These stages, arguably the most difficult in the game. I don't know if you guys would agree with me on that. I definitely agree. The difference here all of a sudden becomes that a game that was based around, you know, shooting targets or shooting enemies and racing against time now encourages neither. Uh, it's bad to go really fast because you'll be hit by the obstacles, but also you cannot shoot these obstacles down.

41:15 Um, the, the, the logs in your way are not destructible. You have to figure out another way to get around them. And it's not just the logs, of course, even in later levels, it's like icebergs and stuff like that. But like the idea that you really just have to make sure that you complete, uh, the, this course without taking so much damage that you lose all your lives. It seems simple and straightforward, but when you couple that with like narrow, um, narrow spaces and lots of obstacles and forgetting that like the, the power-ups actually provide very little use to you now.

41:53 I think, I think this is where the game all of a sudden falters. Oh, for sure. Like if you're, if you're sort of get into a rhythm playing this game between the races and the, the save the children and the blow up the mines and they're all pretty engaging. Like this is where it seems like their, uh, creativity ran out and, uh, are, are just, just making it very hard for you to get forward without actually engaging you in any creative way. It's just like, let's make it so that they have to attempt this several times.

42:27 That's really hard to time it because you're so zoomed in. You can't actually, uh, line up with, uh, or, or get a, get a feel for the speed that the ramps are going. And it, it, it's, uh, it removes so much of what makes this game interesting. Um, and you have to clear it to get to the stuff that makes the game interesting again.

42:50 Right. I, I totally, totally agree. If we're just talking about the jumping the waterfalls levels, I think that those are what I'm talking about for the most part. Those are, those are just like, though, that's what, you know, those are the thing I was saying that this game isn't earlier than where it's like difficult, but not like in the intended way. It's difficult. Yeah. Because you can't see the ramps up ahead of you. So you don't know where to go. And because it's just like a little bit of a janky design.

43:17 Um, so, so yeah, that I think is the worst. The, the other obstacle courses with the logs and the icebergs and the stuff you dodge, those are really hard, but I didn't think they felt like unfair or, or annoying in that way. Like it felt like you just had to be, it was a, that was a level that was all about your precision. And, you know, there are levels that are about your speed and levels that are about your, you know, like a one-on-one little challenge levels that are boss. And this just felt like, like a natural thing to include of like, can you thread the needle here?

43:47 Um, admittedly, you know, I, I only played like the first two of those. So like what, that would be like level like five and level 10 or whatever it was. But like the, the one with the logs and then I think there was one with like, I don't remember what the second, the second one was. But like it wasn't too hard. Icebergs, right. Yeah. But I imagine that later, like maybe they get even harder and maybe it gets a little more frustratingly unfair. But like those ones I thought were kind of cool, but it's, it's just the, um, the waterfall jumping thing that I felt like.

44:18 That's not what this game is about. Back to the, back to the drawing board. Well, the, the waterfall thing ultimately, um, the biggest setback for it is the amount of space that it gives you between these waterfalls, right? Like I, I could understand if there were, you know, maybe like, um, I don't want to just say the longer stretches before each waterfall. Cause I don't think that necessarily solves the problem.

44:43 It's the suddenness of the one particular ramp that you need, right? You're only given one way forward. Yeah. And couple that with the fact that like most of these ramps are moving, you're moving at high speeds and there are objects that you must avoid and none of your power-ups, right? Can save you. Now I'm not saying they, they needed to use the original power-ups here to like help you out. The game needs to zoom out for this to be like, like given fun.

45:13 Like it's doable. Absolutely. It's doable. I guess you could play it enough times that you get, you get the rhythm and like the harmonics of all the shit that's moving and just know where you'll have to be at that very moment. But that's not fun. Like that's, that's just memorization. If that's even how it works.

45:30 Yeah. But have you ever tried to like slow down to like after you successfully pass a waterfall and then you notice like the waves actually start like pushing you in a particular direction that to move up your speed as well. And I, I just, I can't understand that design choice. And then like you'll try to be more precise and go slower, but that just means you're not going to clear the jump and you have to do it again anyway.

45:54 Yeah. I think that they could have also put like a, some sort of indicator at the top of your screen just to show you where the ramp is. So you could like kind of prepare for it. Yeah. Cause that would still need, you would still need to be precise and get to that point. Um, but at least you know where it is now. Yeah. It was like those things combined. The fact that it speeds you up after the water, after the whirlpool and the fact that you can't see where you're supposed to go yet.

46:20 Like one or the other might've been okay. I mean, I don't, personally, I don't think there should ever be a reason you can't see where you're supposed to go before you, you know, just before you have to go there. But like one or the other might've been manageable, but I think with both of those together, it's just like, it's just kind of broken. Yeah. And I don't know if this is, I noticed with a few stages, it's not always the same layout each time.

46:42 Like even, even for the very first stage, maybe I'm just having, um, you know, a lapse in memory here, but I feel like sometimes it like changed which direction the stages lead you and, and such. But in the waterfall stage, no matter what I did, that very first introduction to the waterfall stage, and maybe this is them just trying to communicate to you that you're about to go through hell. When you make it through the first ramp, which is very straightforward. It's the ramp is there and it communicates to you that this ramp is going to help you go over this gap.

47:15 You land exactly in a waterfall, uh, whirlpool. Sorry. You land exactly in a whirlpool. If you were going like the appropriate speed of just like holding down your, your engine, you know, your, your, your revving. So this way you land in that whirlpool. And I just wonder like, why are you trying to also tell me that I'm going to hit in, into shit in these levels and that, uh, you know, I'm in for a bad time.

47:40 Uh, I don't know if you guys also experienced that or if this was just something localized to me, but I played through that level, uh, the first waterfall level multiple times. And every time that first whirlpool is just something that you like perfectly land into and, um, breaks, breaks the momentum, but also makes it harder to get over the following ramp. Yeah. Mike, I think that may have been just in your personalized copy of this.

48:03 Um, I totally could be. What about the other part though? The, um, that the stages aren't always laid out exactly. I think that is just because I know that, um, in the race levels, at least I think the track splits, um, and you can go one way or another. Um, but I usually just follow the enemy boats. Um, but I know that there are a couple of times where there's like a T junction and maybe that's where this, uh, randomization feels like it's happening or maybe it does randomize. I just think I, I remember track splitting.

48:39 It's either very impressive technology or I have dementia. No, well, here's the thing because the track did split in that one, but also I, I wasn't sure if I was imagining either. I'm, I'm more sure of myself now that you're having the same problem, but for the same experience. But, uh, yeah, when I, after I was, was getting my ass handed to me on the, on the second boss, I went back to, you know, started the whole game over to collect more power-ups.

49:04 And, uh, I think I was going completely from the start, completely in the opposite direction. And I was like very confused. I was like, wasn't I going the other way last time? Uh, so like now I'm thinking that was a thing. I thought I was just misremembering. All right. So maybe I don't have a diagnosable problem, but instead rare has a sick sense of humor in, um, a game that is based on skill and precision. It's like that you could just never perfect it because it always changes things.

49:33 All right. Next we have the bonus stages here, the collect the pods and the break the targets, uh, stages that you can't, uh, as far as I know, really like die from. Um, although I think eventually the collect the pods stage add like bombs. So I guess like if you take enough damage, theoretically, you could, uh, lose a life there.

49:53 These stages are, um, interesting because they, they break up the like intensity of the game, maybe for like a much needed moment of just get it, you know, getting your bearings together. But also the collect the pods is the best chance to, uh, boost your, boost your power ups wherever they, uh, needed to be boosted most. Any other comments on, on these particular, uh, objectives and stages? I think they're pretty straightforward.

50:23 Yeah. They're, they're, you know, they're like a, they're, they're small pieces that add to the whole, like they're, they're not, I don't think that there's anything to write home about, but I think it's nice that they're there. Yeah. I guess like one's a, one's like a rail shooter where you're just sort of testing your accuracy. Cause like the, the boat is moving for you and one is about, uh, your movement. Um, but not really about shooting anything. So they're, they're testing different skills and rewarding you for different skills, but, um, there's, there's nothing crazy going on.

50:55 Yeah. And that one that, uh, you know, where you're, where you're just collecting the power ups, that's what we were talking about at the beginning, where it's just like a whole level where you have, you know, your goal is to collect these power ups, but also like your secondary goal is to like, when, when you collect three power ups or two power ups and you get on fire, make sure you boost your, your fire power. And when you get on, you know, to use those power ups to like have a plan in mind. And that's when you do your, like, sort of almost like your, your character building. It builds character.

51:26 Absolutely. All of this is building your character, the, um, the Cobra up for the task of taking down these boss fights, uh, where the game kind of, kind of embraces a, a shmup attitude similar to the greatest power up style system it has. Now it's like putting you against a giant boss monster that, uh, you just have to, to shoot down. There's no, there's no obstacles. There's no, um, large course that you must navigate. It's just you and the boss on a body of water, uh, unexplorable. Very intimate. And you must, yeah, very intimate. And you must take down the boss before, uh, it takes you down. The very first boss is the boss that we've been calling the Loch Ness Monster.

52:09 Um, and it is the one on the cover, but it's not the only, uh, boss in this game. It's not something that you just continue to reoccur there. Um, you continue to fight other bosses like a giant crab, giant enemy crab, I should have said. And, um, uh, eventually I think the final boss is supposed to just be jaws. Like, uh, yeah, it's just a giant. Yeah. There's the giant Loch Ness Monster, the giant crab, the giant shark, the giant squid. And, uh, I think that's it. Um, I think that's it. The four bosses of the game. Uh, but keep in mind, the giant squid is not last. It's the giant shark where you just see it's. Sure. I was just listing them as I remembered them, but thank you for that clarification.

52:52 Um, but okay. So it's kind of like a shmup, right? But they didn't fully embrace this. They could have, they could have done a little more to embrace, um, the, you know, like how we're used to dealing with shmup boss fights, right? Like they could have leaned into that a little more. I think like, yes, the boat maneuvering makes it a little more interesting because, you know, you have to like twist and turn more, but the space is so limited that you have that ultimately, like if you, if you just twist and turn too much with your boat around the boss, right? Like navigating your way around it, you're ultimately just going to wind up running into it too. I mean, that was my opinion on these.

53:29 Like there's, there's not enough room, uh, in these levels to really do much of anything. Like, I guess you could, like you really, you're just trying to move back and forth to avoid attacks, which I guess is any boss of in any game. But I think like, if, if you were able to scroll away and like, it was just like twice the size of what it was and like the boss would just like be in the corner of the screen and you can like sort of like do some loops around it.

54:01 Maybe it would be a bit more, uh, interesting in that regard. Um, but I think between the, the, the controls, not really lending themselves well to, uh, to boss fights of this nature, um, they had to keep the bosses simple enough, um, so that they could be beaten. But that also means that they're much more forgettable experiences.

54:26 Yeah. I thought it was interesting that, you know, you have to think about this in a different way than you would a regular shmup also though. Like, you know, I, I do think you could, we can definitely use a lot more room on the screen, but other than that, you also have to think about the fact that like, because of the nature of these controls, you have to orient your, your boat to, in the direction you want to go at any time. You can't just quickly dodge to the left. You have to turn to the left. Like you're actually driving a boat. You can't back up away from something.

54:55 If a shot is coming at you, you can't just quickly dodge it. You almost have to be like doing circles the whole time, you know, to just constantly be like moving. If you want to be able to move away and not run into the sides of the screen, which I think made it a little more frustrating, but also, you know, I think added an appropriate challenge to, to some extent where it's like, Hey, here's a shmup, but you're in a boat. So you have to play it like you're in a boat.

55:20 Um, so I, I, I mixed on that. I definitely agree that you should have more room or be able to get away. You should have more space or maybe everything should just be smaller. You know, these cameras should be zoomed out, but, but I, I, I liked the, the bosses as a refreshing change to shmup bosses.

55:40 Um, I don't know if I would like any more than four of them. Like it was nice to just kind of get that refreshing thing. I don't think I'd want this to be all games, but it was interesting to like, think about it so differently. Right. And keep in mind, that's a good point, Joe, about the, the number of bosses, but also just like other NES games that we have played and have not reviewed favorably would have ended after the Loch Ness monster style boss. Right. And then they just loop those same stages over and over again.

56:10 Right. You think like that would have been enough. We're now at a point where good games have to actually have some length to them too. And some, and, and add some variety. So it's interesting that like, after you complete the boss one, you haven't even seen all the possible stages, uh, all the different layouts of objectives, but also that like, they're going to repeat objectives, but make sure that they, uh, change the scenery and make them a little tougher and add extra obstacles and stuff. I, I, I, I applaud that.

56:42 But to go back to the, the boss fights, you know, this could have been a chance for them to actually, uh, embrace some racing. These could have been boss races against, uh, against each of these. And before you think I'm joking, um, just imagine if the, um, the Loch Ness monster thing, right. Was almost like, uh, it, you know, bordering an auto scroller here, but it's at the edge of the screen. That's how I, yeah. That's how I thought you were going to describe this. I think that would be cool. That'd be fun. Yeah.

57:14 I liked that a lot. That sounds, that sounds like a, like a cool, like a, like the perfect, uh, like, uh, finale to each of these sections. Like boss in a race game. Yeah. Of course the game that I am describing and is clearly the like spiritual successor of Cobra Triangle and RC Pro-Am mixed together is Diddy Kong racing on the Nintendo 64. And if you can't see it yet, all of the different objectives and things that we've been talking about in one way or another do happen in Diddy Kong racing. Save the Children is in there?

57:53 Yeah. They actually, you have to save, you have to protect your eggs and capture other people's eggs. Oh. Um, so that is like a direct, I, I posted on the, um, on the Twitter at NostalgiaCast Twitter showing the side-by-side of the Save the Children, which is actually guard the people. I've seen it in a playthrough now. I think it's Save the Children too.

58:15 Um, but, um, you know, it's that side-by-side with the eggs. And I think you'll see what I'm talking about with how much of Diddy Kong racing, which keep in mind, not only made by Rare, but also was supposed to be RC Pro-Am 64 before they were given permission to use Diddy Kong. So I think like, yeah, all coming together, but also like, you know, there are boat levels in Diddy Kong racing too. So that's why I say like Cobra Triangle works its way in there.

58:44 But, uh, you know, it has boss fights. It has, uh, obstacles, uh, very similar to the obstacles that you see here in the, in, in their boat races. So I think it's just funny. Uh, I wanted to point that out. It's not a sequel or a spinoff, so I didn't put it in that section, but it's worth a thought, right? Of like, yeah, I think it's a pretty easy through line.

59:04 Yeah. Sometimes you can't like, you can't really see it that way though, until you go backwards, right? Like I don't think anybody played Diddy Kong racing and thought like, oh yeah, Cobra Triangle. I think you have to go back, play Diddy Kong racing, then play Cobra Triangle to see those kinds of connections. It's interesting to do that with games. And I'm surprised we haven't seen that more often with NES games that we've been playing where we, we see how they, they work their way into future games.

59:29 Yeah. I mean, in a way we have, we've been talking about like, that's sort of what we do usually, but I get what you're saying. Calling out specific games is a cool thing. Within the, the, the same company's work.

59:41 Right. For the real sequels and spinoff section, there, there were no Cobra Triangle sequels, but if you want to play Cobra Triangle and don't have an NES handy, it is in the, uh, that Rare replay package that, uh, recently came out like two or three years ago, uh, that has like 30 of Rare's games on it. Cobra Triangle was included. And I thought that was neat because this is not a game that I hear talked about too much when, uh, people talk about the Rare gameography, but it's, it's nice that it's in there. And for Xbox Game Pass people, I'm pretty sure, uh, all of the Rare replay games are available,

1:00:16 um, uh, in one way or another. So Cobra Triangle is definitely something that can be checked out. Lovely. Now we've been talking and breaking down Cobra Triangle, uh, for a while now, and we've broken down literally everything I think the game has to offer. So we might as well give our final verdicts in a little thing we call the Essential Games List. Joe, your vote for Cobra Triangle.

1:00:43 Well, every once in a while, I feel like we get one of these games that, uh, I've never heard of that surprises me and this definitely did that. This definitely impressed me. I thought just by looking at it, I thought, you know, unfairly, this is just going to be another one of those boring games. It's going to be, you know, it's going to be generic.

1:01:00 This really impressed me. I thought it was really cool. I thought it did, uh, it did a lot of variety. It has like, I mean, it's polished. We didn't really talk about like the graphics, but it's, it's like clean and also textured, which like, I feel like it's you, you, we usually only get one of the other like a lot of texture because it's going for realism, but it looks terrible or it's very clean, but very simple. And this has kind of got like the best of both worlds. It controls really well.

1:01:27 It's, you know, it, it gives you some challenge. Now, yeah, there are some, um, some hangups with the, with a couple of the levels. And, and I'll say maybe this is a little bit of recency bias. Maybe I'll look back at this and wonder why I did this. But right now I think that, uh, I couldn't, I couldn't say that this isn't essential. I really had a good time with it. So, so I'm going to go with it. All right. That is one. Yes. Sean, your vote.

1:01:54 Um, yeah, like I agree with, with Joe and like, this is, uh, it's a unique game. It's like, I even mentioned earlier that I don't even know too many modern games that, uh, sort of put you in, um, the position that you're in here. Um, I, I really loved a couple of the, the different game modes. Some I really hated.

1:02:19 Um, and so that, that sort of puts me in a bind here because a lot of my, uh, boxes are ticked here. But, um, I, I think that some of the less fun moments sort of outweighed the more fun moments for me personally. Um, I, I still think that this is a game that should be experienced, but I don't know if I can put it on my essential games list. So I'm, I'm not going to, but it is a very, it was a tough decision. Sean says, play it, but not essential.

1:03:00 You know, it's a funny thing, right? Um, where you talk about Sean that like, it has a lot of great things, like almost, almost borderline, like amazing. And we haven't seen before. And then it has like some bad experience parts that like, oh, it's like, all right, this waters down my vote for the game.

1:03:19 But like, if they remove those parts, right? Like say they never existed. I know that's like hard to imagine, but if they remove all of those parts, does it then go on the essential games list? Like, is it a better game now that it doesn't have those bad moments or is it like, well, now it actually just doesn't have enough.

1:03:37 Yeah. I don't know. That's a good question. It's an interesting thing. And so I was thinking about that as I was putting together my vote, because I, the, the headline for mine was that this is not a complete package. Um, and that was going to be like where I, where I left off, but what does it mean to be a complete package? Like if you just remove all the bad parts, does that it become a great game? Could you do that with any video game? Could any video game be a great game if you just removed all the bad parts? I don't, I don't think so. Some games wouldn't exist though.

1:04:07 Right. Exactly. But also just like the idea that, um, you know, like, uh, a silly example, but first one that comes to my head is like people who didn't like the ending of Mass Effect 3, right? Um, if you, if you make the ending, whatever that particular player wanted instead, right? Not removing an ending. I'm not saying like the game just doesn't end, but if you give them exactly what they wanted instead, is it now like the best game of all time and deserves to be on the essential games list or is it like the ending was really like that much?

1:04:39 Like you're, you're only caught up in the ending and therefore you, like you can't accept the package. So I don't think video games or any medium really needs to be like a 100% thing to be on a best of list. I wouldn't, I would say like a lot of games on our essential games list aren't like they're all flawed. Actually complete. Right. Yeah. They're not complete packages where it's like, this is the, this is the best, but it is a best of class. You know, it's like, it's like, this is the best, this is like the best in show that we've seen so far. And that's why these things are up there.

1:05:16 All that to be said, I'm still not going to put Cobra Trials on the essential games list. I, I, I, that's because. I, I gotta ask, can you clarify what you mean by complete package?

1:05:31 I'm, I'm not, I'm a little confused. Right. No. Okay. So I guess what I'm saying is, is, you know, that's the part that's up for interpretation, right? Is, is what is a complete package? Like if you remove the levels that you don't like all of a sudden, are you saying like, yeah, this is the, this is the complete package. Like it only has good moments.

1:05:48 And it's like, well, that's not necessarily like how things should work. Right. Like just, just remove the things you don't like. And now it's a game you do like. Honestly, the way that I'm, I'm interpreting what you're saying is like a good thing isn't just an absence of bad things. And, uh, really then all you're making is something kind of mediocre that doesn't have any true, like terrible parts. But I, I, I, what I also think you mean by the, the complete package, uh, uh, phrase is that even with the, the good parts in this game and ignoring the, uh, annoying or frustrating parts, uh, there just, there isn't enough. Is that sort of what you're saying? Like there isn't enough fun things.

1:06:35 Um, I think, I think I couldn't have said it better, uh, for myself. I think you spoke for me there. Uh, but, but correctly. So like, um, I, yeah, I guess anything I'm about to say would just reiterate that. So I think we should go with that. Is that ultimately, ultimately, like you can't just remove bad things and be happy that like now the game only has the things you like about it. Like there, there is a reason why there's a waterfall stage in this game.

1:07:01 And like the waterfall stages existence, isn't what makes me like, say it's not an essential game. I think it's the, the overall game here is like a fun, unique play it style thing, but not something that I'm going to see myself like continuing to go back to or saying like, you know, I never beat Cobra Triangle. Like I should go back and try and beat it. Uh, overall, like the experience for me was something that I had fun doing, but I didn't love my time with Cobra Triangle. So it wasn't the complete package.

1:07:31 Gotcha. Does that, does that clear up at all? I think it clears up. I think I, yeah, I mean, I think I just have a different opinion on, on that. Like, I understand what you're saying now. I just don't agree. But like, I agree with, I agree with your thought process. I just, I just, I like this game more. I like the things about this game more. I feel like it is complete. That's what it boils down to. But now I get why, you know, what you're saying. Right. And I think, you know, that's a, that's just an interesting point too, is like, there's,

1:07:55 there's different qualifications to the essential games list that we, you know, we've always mentioned, but there's also just like different qualifications for like, you know, what, what, what makes a game, uh, like go over the threshold of like, like it and love it. You know, like I, I feel like there's a lot of games where if we take the essential games list for the most part, even though it seems controversial for the most part on our list, all four of us or, or now three of us have always voted like typically essential.

1:08:28 Uh, there's only a few that are like, you know, this person did not vote or it was very divided for the most part. It's all of us. But if we looked at like our play it's, that's where things get a little more interesting. That's where you see stuff like, you know, Sean recommending Top Gun, um, which other people, no, other people agree with you though. You know what I'm saying? It's like, once you get into like actual tastes of games, then you, then the list can become like a much more unique thing. I think with the essential games list, because we throw in the, like, would you play it today?

1:09:01 Like qualifier, right? Of like, it's still essential in 2021. That's like what adds like a little more filter through the mix. So like, yeah, Cobra Triangle, absolutely. Play it. And I'll recommend it to every fan of the NES who hopefully is listening to this, uh, to this podcast. But in terms of like essential, I don't think it gets there for me. Yeah, I hear you. This is actually, yeah, you're right. Like this is definitely like falls into that, like that category that I, you know, beforehand I would be wondering, will this get on? Will it not? It's not like ones that are obviously going to get on like, like Mario or Zelda 2. Right. Which, you know, we have.

1:09:45 Man, sometimes this is just a sketch comedy show. Right, right. Sometimes the opening of the episode sounds like the ending. Guys, be honest with me. When you saw that we were playing a game called Cobra Triangle, you must have thought at least somewhat that it was going to be a playoff on the Bermuda Triangle. Well, all right. That's actually not what I was thinking. I still don't know what Cobra Triangle is really referencing here. I figured with Cobra in the name, I thought it was going to be like some kind of military thing because, you know, snakes show up as in titles in those kinds of games sometime. But I have no idea what this means. My original thought was similar. Like maybe just because like Cobra, Cobra command type thing or something.

1:10:31 But once I saw there was water, I did think Bermuda Triangle. Once I saw that there was water. Yeah, but that had nothing to do with the Cobra Triangle. Whenever I see water, I think about the Bermuda Triangle. Now I think that the triangle part is just because like, you know, boats are slightly triangular. Yeah, and the Cobra part is because there's a Cobra in the wake. When you look back behind a speedboat, it looks like a Cobra head. Oh, that's fun. Is it not that like are Cobra like a type of boats? Like is that a possibility? I suppose. I don't know enough about boats.

1:11:06 I'm not rich enough to own one. Joe's pretty confident about that. I have no idea. Something about that, just, you know, maybe I just thought like even if maybe your boat is the Cobra in this game. Like for all we know, it's just nicknamed the Cobra. And the triangle part is like just a, you know, it's a shape. Just a fun shape reference. What's your favorite shape? It's just a reference to shapes, you know, a sick reference.

1:11:34 Why does it feel like we're done with the episode? No, we're not done with the episode. I feel like this is the post show. I think what I was really wanted this to be about was just about the Bermuda Triangle because that is something that like as a kid you're told to be like actively afraid of. Like we need to solve whatever's going down at the Bermuda Triangle. But then like when you become an adult, you just don't think about that anymore. I mean, it's the same with whirlpools and that's in this game too. Like I was deathly afraid of whirlpools.

1:12:01 Whirlpools and quicksand. Yeah, exactly. They're everywhere but also nowhere. But like, I mean, has anyone seen a whirlpool before? Has anyone seen a whirlpool and quicksand in the same room at the same time? Yeah. Thank you.