397 · The Punisher

• DON’T FORGET WHILE YOU’RE OUT HUNTING THEM, THEY’RE HUNTING YOU
• Introduction to Punisher
• Creation & debut: First appeared in The Amazing Spider-Man #129 (Feb 1974); created by writer Gerry Conway with artists Ross Andru and John Romita Sr. Stan Lee suggested the name “The Punisher” (Conway’s working name was “The Assassin”).
• Movies/TV at a glance: Three films—The Punisher (1989, Dolph Lundgren), The Punisher (2004, Thomas Jane), Punisher: War Zone (2008, Ray Stevenson)—plus Jon Bernthal’s definitive turn in Netflix’s Daredevil (2016) and The Punisher (2017–2019). Bernthal returns in Daredevil: Born Again (2025)
• Big comics runs / storylines:
• “Welcome Back, Frank” (2000, Garth Ennis/Steve Dillon) relaunched Frank under Marvel Knights and redefined the tone. Marvel
• Punisher MAX – “The Slavers” (2005–06) is a fan-favorite, brutally grounded arc about human trafficking. Marvel
• “Franken-Castle” (2009–10) turns Frank into a stitched-together monster after Daken dismembers him—yes, really. Wikipedia
• Cosmic Ghost Rider (2018): In a future timeline Frank becomes Ghost Rider, then a Herald of Galactus—the wildest Frank since…ever. Marvel
• Oddball & delightful:
• Archie Meets the Punisher (1994): A straight-faced crossover with Archie Comics that somehow works. Wikipedia
• Space: Punisher (2012): A pulp sci-fi miniseries blasting crime across the cosmos. Marvel
• Introduction to the Game
• What it is: An over‑the‑shoulder, on‑rails shooter for NES (1991) starring Marvel’s vigilante, Frank Castle. Developed by Beam Software and published by LJN.
• Why it matters: Odd duck in the NES library—no Zapper support, but a cursor‑aim shooter mashed with light brawler moments, environmental destruction, and Marvel fan service.
• On‑air openers
• What’s your earliest Punisher memory—comics, the 90s cartoon, or this cart?
• Does “cursor shooter without a light gun” sound doomed… or intriguing?
• Release, Credits, and Setup
• Release: 1991 (NES, NA). Game Boy sibling in the same year (The Punisher: The Ultimate Payback!). Similar cursor shooter game, but Spider-Man is helping the Punsiher gun people down?!
• Studio & License: Beam Software (Melbourne) for LJN; Marvel creative names in credits.
• Framing: Wanted‑poster hub that lets you target crime bosses leading up to the Kingpin.
• Controls & Core Loop (explain early)
• A = fire (rapid). B = lob explosive (grenade/rocket). D‑Pad steers the on‑screen crosshair; when not firing, Frank slides left/right at the bottom to dodge.
• Scrolling: Stages auto‑scroll across city streets, subways, docks, prisons, and sewers.
• Goal: Survive waves, shoot destructibles (windows, signs, crates, manholes) to reveal ammo, health, armor, rockets, and tips (Daily Bugle papers).
• Grade & rewards: End‑of‑stage kill % grants tiered bonuses (health → ammo → grenades → extra life → Super Gun for 100%).
• Discuss now
• Do the dodge‑while‑aiming controls click after a few minutes, or never quite gel?
• Arsenal & Pickups (quick, specific)
• Guns: Default SMG (Uzi‑like) → Assault Rifle (faster ROF) → Super Gun (earned via 100% clear).
• Explosives: Grenades (arc blast) and Rocket Launcher (aim anywhere; big splash).
• Survivability: Health kits, bulletproof vest (extends life bar), extra lives (skull), ammo clips; Daily Bugle newspapers scroll hints.
• Difficulty & Mastery
• Triage: Prioritize grenade/rocket targets (chainguns, launchers, clustered ninjas).
• Economy: Don’t hoard rockets past helicopters/tanks; vests extend risk budget—grab even at near‑full.
• 100% route: Going for kill‑perfect to earn the Super Gun changes how aggressive you play; skipping bonus rooms can preserve spawn counts.
• Presentation & Feel
• Visuals: Big sprites, lots on screen; Punisher “slides” along foreground; environmental debris everywhere.
• Audio: Sparse music; gun/explosion SFX dominate; occasional mournful sax riff from the busker.
• Discuss now
• Would a punchier OST have helped pacing, or does the dryness fit the tone?
• Discuss now
• Is the 100% reward worth the stress, or does the base kit suffice?
• What’s your personal rule for when to cash a grenade versus tap‑fire.
• Stage‑by‑Stage Flavor & Talking Points (ask questions where they occur)
• Level 1 – HITMAN (Streets → Rooftops → Helicopter)
• Street learnings: Window snipers, alley ambushes, innocents on screen (a blues sax player—don’t shoot him or you lose health). Early Assault Rifle and grenades hidden in cars/trash.
• Boss set‑piece: Helicopter with chain‑guns; target hardpoints with rockets, then pelt cockpit between bursts.
• Discuss now
• Did the blues busker fake anyone out as a “powerup”? Do innocent NPCs belong in a shooter like this?
• Level 2 – JIGSAW (Docks → Prison yard → Prison interior)
• Pier play: Supports and crates hide ammo/health; scuba gunners pop from the water’s shadows.
• Prison mix: Flood of green‑berets, destructible consoles/TVs for supplies; optional bonus rooms behind “GO” prompts.
• Boss beat: Jigsaw swaps between gunfire and in‑your‑face melee; brief close‑quarters sequence where you time kicks/punches, then resume explosives.
• Discuss now
• Love or hate the sudden melee interludes—cool change‑up or control tax?
• Level 3 – COLONEL KLIEGG (Harbor loop → Tank fight)
• Harbor redux with harder ninjas and ammo management.
• Boss: Rolling tank duel—strafe, toss explosives during salvos, finish when Kliegg exposes the hatch.
• Discuss now
• Does the tank fight sell “Punisher vs. machine,” or just become a grenade dump?
• Level 4 – SIJO KANAKA (City → Subway bonus → Sewers)
• City/subway: Newspapers point secrets (ride the train bonus); ninjas telegraph with leaps—tag them as they land.
• Sewers: Scarce vests—remember which blue pipes/boxes hide health.
• Boss: Aerial sword arcs + shuriken; bait leaps, kick punish, then resume fire.
• Level 5 – ASSASSIN (Warehouse labyrinth → Bonus rooms)
• Warehouses: Carton pyramids stuffed with ammo/rockets; chain‑gun elites on stairwells; quick detours to “GO” bonus rooms.
• Boss: Cyborg with detachable arm cannons—pop parts off in phases; grenades trivialize patterns.
• Final Level – KINGPIN (Inner city gauntlet → Office finale)
• Attrition test: Heavier snipers, ninjas + berets overlap; tons of destructible pickups if you remember which signs/manholes/benches matter.
• Finale: There is some hand to hand combat with Kingpin
• Beyond the Game (context you can weave between segments)
• Comics moment: Late‑80s/early‑90s anti‑hero boom (Punisher maxed in popularity; Kingpin/Jigsaw as household villain names).
• Platform quirks: Released under Nintendo’s content rules—bloodless hit reactions, but unusually intense gunplay for NES.

Year	Title	System(s)	What made it unique
1990	The Punisher	DOS	Hybrid “vigilante sim” with three modes: drive the Battle Van, on-foot building and street raids, and even scuba missions around NYC. Published by MicroProse, developed by Paragon. Wikipedia
1990	The Punisher: Eternity Disk	DOS	Add-on for the Paragon DOS game that shipped 50 new missions plus a mission construction set. MobyGames+1
1990	The Punisher	Amiga, Atari ST	Completely different game by The Edge. Single-screen, first-person crosshair shooter where you sweep rooms and avoid hitting civilians. MobyGames
1991	The Punisher	NES	Over-the-shoulder rail shooter on NES where you both aim a reticle and slide Frank along the bottom row. One of the system’s few rail shooters. Final boss is Kingpin. Wikipedia
1991	The Punisher: The Ultimate Payback!	Game Boy	Portable spin on the NES game. Adds Spider-Man cameos and swaps the final boss to Jigsaw. Plays as an on-rails gallery shooter. Wikipedia+1
1993	The Punisher	Arcade	Capcom side-scrolling beat ’em up in the Final Fight mold with 2-player co-op as Punisher and Nick Fury, lots of guns and improvised weapons. This was the first Marvel–Capcom collaboration. In 2024 it finally got an arcade-faithful console port via Marvel vs. Capcom Fighting Collection. Wikipedia+2Wikipedia+2
2005	The Punisher	PlayStation 2, Xbox, Windows	Volition’s third-person shooter famous for its brutal interrogation set pieces and comic-inspired story beats. Some executions were censored with a black-and-white filter in certain regions. Reddit
2009	The Punisher: No Mercy	PlayStation 3 (PSN)	Arena-style multiplayer FPS from Zen Studios built on Unreal Engine 3. PSN-only release that was later delisted in 2011 due to licensing.

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 The Punisher! Don't forget, while you're out hunting them, they're hunting you!

00:22 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. The Punisher, as an IP, or just maybe just as a character, a lot going on there, a lot of different movies.

00:44 But one thing that's consistent, it's kind of like Spider-Man, right? Like, Uncle Ben has to die. He always becomes the Punisher because his family is killed. And that's kind of like, it's kind of sad, right? Not every superhero has that kind of background that like the Punisher and Spider-Man have in common where, you know, like someone has to die in order for you to become the hero. Superman doesn't have that. Well, is Batman too? Yeah, that's true, actually. Batman's, I guess, like the OG of that. And Superman wouldn't be Superman unless his entire planet was destroyed. Yeah, but he was like a baby. Yeah, yeah. He didn't decide to become that.

01:22 Sure. But I mean, it's still like, you know, like the consequence. I think it happens. It seems to happen a lot with like non-powered superheroes or lesser powered superheroes. Like if you've got like crazy superpowers, you're like, oh yeah, I'll just be a superhero. But like, otherwise, something's got to happen to make you a superhero. Right, right. Iron Man was just like, I want to break out of prison. Yeah, yeah, true.

01:44 But the Punisher first appeared with Spider-Man in the Amazing Spider-Man number 129. That's frustrating for me because I collect Amazing Spider-Man comics and that's like, you know, the 100s are significantly less expensive than the really low numbers. But this issue is crazy expensive and I'll probably never own it as a result because the Punisher is a pretty big deal in terms of like characters that came out during like the Bronze Age of comic books.

02:18 And, you know, the whole like where he goes from there. There's a lot of like interesting storylines like way after the fact just to show you how weird like the Punisher can get.

02:31 There's a series called Franken Castle where they turn the Punisher into a stitched together monster a la Frankenstein. And they have to. Huh. Yeah, exactly. You get what's going on there. Yeah. But then also there's another one where the Punisher becomes the cosmic ghost rider who is the Herald of Galactus in the future. Punisher. That's a weird choice, too. So they're not afraid to like take Punisher and do really extreme stuff like Punisher in space where it's like a pulp sci fi miniseries where Punisher's, you know, still taking care of vigilante crime stuff.

03:13 But, you know, in the in space in an astronaut suit. Yeah. I'd say Punisher was probably the first like Marvel guy that I actually thought was pretty cool. Uh, due in fact entirely to the 2004 Tom Jane vehicle named after him. It was probably like it was one of the first like dark and gritty versions of comic book stuff that I saw.

03:45 And it was hyper violent. And I'm a big fan. Big fan of that movie. Uh, having not seen it in probably 15, 20 years. It's the best way to remain a fan of something is to stay away from it after. Yeah. True. That wasn't even the first version of the Punisher on film. Actually, there was a 1989 movie with Dolph Lundgren as the Punisher. Uh, and afterwards, I don't, I feel like no one ever played the Punisher consecutively until, um, John Bernthal in, you know, the Daredevil series and then the Punisher series. And now that's the Netflix new Daredevil series. That's technically part of the old Daredevil series. Yeah. Who cares about Canon? Um, is this one you're talking about? Not the Netflix series. That is the Netflix series.

04:31 Yeah. So I haven't seen any of those, but, uh, honestly, I don't think I was familiar with the Punisher as a character at all until that came out. And now I just know about it through like just hearing about the series. Yeah. The, uh, uh, I, I, I'd say that it also has colored my impression of just, you know, people like, like Tom Jane, like, you know, when I first saw him in, uh, arrested development and just saying like, I just want my kids back.

04:59 I'm like, that's the Punisher saying that that's the Punisher that we're laughing at. Um, it's kind of inappropriate considering what he went through and, um, you know, Rebecca Romaine Stamos. Like that's, that's the Punisher. I don't know anything about these comic books you're talking about. Yeah. Uh, it's funny though, because, uh, even John Bernthal, when I see him, whenever he appears in the bear, I'm like, Oh, that's just the Punisher.

05:27 I guess he opened up a restaurant in Chicago, got away from the streets of the New York City. But to me, that's just the Punisher. And I guess that happens a lot. Yeah. The comics, the comics do get weird though. Cause there's plenty of ones where, uh, there's, they're serious and, and he's a vigilante and all that. But then there's, there's also like, I found this one, Archie meets the Punisher, which is a straight faced crossover.

05:49 I think I did see this comic like cover. Yeah. The cover is hysterical because they even drew him like ever so slightly in the Archie style, but still like with like a five o'clock shadow and, uh, you know, and he's holding an assault wet rifle. It's like, it's pretty funny. And Archie says, cause they're at the, the Riverdale high sock hop. Archie says on the cover, I knew there'd be a chaperone, but this is ridiculous.

06:14 But you said this is like played straight though. Well, I guess in the sense of like, yeah, the played straight that he exists in this universe. Oh yeah. Like our, yeah, of course the Punisher is our school chaperone. Yeah. He's always been. Preposterous. And you really don't need to know any of this to play the Punisher video game on NES. Uh, this is an over the shoulder on rail shooter, uh, developed by beam software published by LJN. Now, when you'll be here, LJN, usually you jump immediately to a conclusion, but I jumped to a, a quicker conclusion with this game.

06:51 This, this, I thought like when I first booted up, I could have sworn I was going to be playing a zapper game, but there's not even zapper. There's not even like optional zapper support. This is a move the D pad to aim your cursor shooter mashed with some, you know, very, very light melee. But for the most part, it's just shooting in what could have totally been a, uh, an on rails zapper game. I'll like, you know, future time crisis and those style of games.

07:19 Yeah. I guess you could make that argument. Um, but I think that if you like, if you look at what kind of mechanics this game is actually employing and you think about sort of replacing them with the zapper, it like moves, it removes any kind of uniqueness to how this game operates because you would just be shooting at the screen and it would be weird if the Punisher was there too. And you could accidentally shoot yourself. I mean, not that it would actually like respond that you shot yourself. Maybe it should. Um, that it, I don't know. It would just be like the, what's the, um, it would just be like the paintball game.

08:02 Yeah. It would also take away, you know, the fact you, you are moving the Punisher. I don't know his name, the Punisher across the screen, uh, um, like left and right the whole time. He's like strafing across the screen.

08:15 And, uh, I guess, yeah, that, that is always like this thing that bothers me with zapper games. Not saying that I, I'm not saying I prefer this over a zapper game. That's a different conversation, but like one flaw zapper games have is like things, people will just shoot at you and it's like, you can't move. You can see people aiming at you. You can't like duck or anything.

08:36 Cause you're holding a zapper. Yeah. Whereas this it's like, you can actually move your character out of the way of bullets like real life. Unless you wanted to make it some kind of weird Frankenstein game where you, you hold a gun in one hand and the controller in the other. Yeah. But then still you'd run into that problem where it's like, you could see yourself on screen, but like you're behind you holding the gun. Yeah. I would hate it. I would, I would very much hate it.

09:01 In all things considered, like, cause it having to move around left and right and also having to move the cursor, but like by, by all accounts should not work as well as it ends up working. Like, yeah, but like honestly by a few minutes into this, I'm like, I intuitively know, like I just have a feel for it. So it's surprising the way that they accomplish that. So I would say that on one hand, I agree with you in that like, this is when I think about it, this is like the only way they could have done it. And I did get it. I did get it, but it does not feel good. In my opinion. It just, I just grant that this is probably the only way they could have done it.

09:41 Yeah. I mean, for, I don't know just what it was about this, but like when I first, when I first started playing it, I was like, yeah, this doesn't feel great. Cause just for anyone listening that hasn't played it, when you're moving the D pad left and right without firing, you're moving your character back and forth. As soon as you start firing, you're now still, your character is not moving. And the cursor, the, uh, the crosshair is moving around the screen.

10:05 I did like, I don't know. I just developed a feel for it immediately. And I kind of forgot that that's what was even happening. It was just kind of natural to me. I do recognize that there is this small issue of like, you have finite ammo. So if I want to be moving the cursor, I always have to be firing.

10:21 Uh, that's kind of annoying. If I want to be moving the cursor while not moving myself, I have to be firing, which is a little, definitely like something that like, if there was one more button on the controller, maybe I could have done something else. But, but yeah, I was surprised at how much it didn't bother me after I gave it a few minutes. And so as you're firing off at your enemies or strafing away from them, the goal is to survive, uh, while this, you know, auto scrolling is happening, just survive waves and waves of, of enemies that are armed, uh, with all different kinds of weapons. And sometimes they just immediately attack other times, uh, it takes a, you know, like they're, they're strolling and then they whip out their gun.

11:01 All that to say, like in these levels, like at what point did this become the Punisher's responsibility? And like, when should the government get involved? Like what is going on in this city? Well, I mean, that's the thing. Like the Punisher steps in when the authorities won't like it's the whole vigilante thing. That's his, that's his stick. I agree, but like his, his solution and I'm not, you know, we're, we're, we can talk about, um, him, him as a character too, being flawed here. Like his solution is just to fire, uh, you know, with an automatic weapon, just like constantly at enemies all over the place too, to the point where maybe carelessly, he even shoots an innocent saxophone player.

11:47 If you, if he, you have to be, you have to be some kind of sociopath to shoot the saxophonist. Like you let him do his thing. I don't know. Here's the thing. A lot of these guys look just like regular guys. There's walking on the street. Suddenly he's holding a saxophone.

12:04 I don't even know who the saxophone guy is. You're talking, I know the innocent guy. I'd never saw the saxophone. You don't hear the music though. That comes on when he, the only time there's music. I did hear the music, but I did, I literally did not at any point connect that he's holding a saxophone. It's funny because it, as Sean mentioned, it's the only time in the game that there's music. Otherwise there's no music in the levels. And it was really funny because of course I'm going to do that. I immediately shot him and the music stops. It's very funny.

12:34 Sure. But I think that, I don't know, the dulcet tones. He's playing the saxophone in a firefight. I'm suspicious. Fucking badass. I'm suspicious. Right. And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to say anything here, but he kind of looks like them.

12:52 If you mean walking around with a pulse, then I guess you're right. Yeah. He's in the line of fire. There's also like, there are a lot of guys at the beginning that just like are walking by with their hands in their pocket. I'm like, oh shit, don't shoot them. They're innocent people. And then they get to the other side of the screen, they turn around and shoot. And I'm like, okay, well now, so is every, are there no innocent people in this game? Oh, there are innocent people. I killed the saxophonist. Just the saxophonist. Yeah. If you kill the saxophonist, you are, you lose like a substantial portion of your health.

13:21 Yeah. You do, you do pay for it. I'm glad. And there are different guns that you can, you know, you start with the Uzi, but you can collect other guns in the stage. There are grenades and even a rocket launcher that you can pick up. There are health kits along the way. So there's a lot of different like variety of the power-ups, but the way you find them is fun too, because it's part of the destructible environment. So you're not rewarded necessarily for taking down the enemies. You're rewarded for continuing to shoot up the city.

13:56 Well, I mean, again, what's going on here? I think it's my favorite part of the game. And I think that's probably the favorite part of a lot of people's favorite part of the game is just how reactive, not even just the environment, but also like the enemies. It's not like there's some kind of like procedural generation of an animation of like whenever you shoot an enemy, they die different. But like different enemy types die in different ways. And it's not like they just sort of flash off the screen. If it's a guy that's like running across the screen, sort of like strafing at you, like he will fall very silly on his head and then blink out of existence.

14:41 And just shooting like whether it's windows or like machinery in the back or just garbage bags, it all has something going on. And there's a lot going on at once. So it feels very reactive, which I'm always a big fan of. And speaking of the different, you know, the multiple different ways that like animations when these enemies die, the saddest one is the guy laying on his stomach. Oh, yeah. And you just shoot him and his head just pops down. Like it's really, it's like really unassuming. It just head just falls down. Yeah, he's playing like heads up, seven up or whatever. Yeah. All right, my time to go back to bed.

15:22 And so there are grenades as well, or the rocket launcher explosives. What is the, what is your like personal rule for when to use a grenade or any kind of explosive in these kinds of games versus just firing? Because I find myself holding these grenades probably a little longer than I should.

15:40 Well, that's part of it for me is remembering I have the grenades. But then, yeah, whenever there's a bunch of enemies bunched up together, I mean, that seems for me it's the reminder that I even have the grenades is the boss battle. And then you just sort of poop them all out while you're fighting the boss. And that's also, I think it's the most efficient thing to just like, just hold down the shoot button and just also tank every shot when you're fighting the boss, because you probably accumulated a good amount of lives by now.

16:14 And it's just, you know, otherwise it's kind of a tedious fight. We haven't talked about the bosses yet, but that's when I use all of my like upgrades and stuff. And so naturally the Punisher would have upgrades like new guns and explosives and bulletproof vests and stuff. But it doesn't really feel like, it doesn't just feel like they could be power-ups in any video game where you shoot a gun. And we've seen them, but the one interesting one, I guess, is the Daily Bugle newspaper scroll hints at the bottom that like relay information back to the player. Because that has like a, that has personality to it. And also it has lore to it that it's the Daily Bugle giving these, you know, giving these hints.

17:03 I would have liked to have seen maybe more nods like that because these, these enemies are, you know, just like whatever the, the bosses obviously like the Kingpin, huge Marvel character. Like no one's going to be like, oh, I can't believe he's at the end of the game. Like, yeah, of course you would use them. But throughout the game, it does, it does kind of feel like, especially with the Punisher having his back to you. If they didn't have that, the Punisher with the logo next to it at all times on the UI, you might forget that you're playing a Punisher.

17:32 Yeah. I think the identifying, uh, how identifiable, how identifiable the Punisher is, is different in the context of like, you know, the, the comics or just his, like just in the culture in general and then in video games. In the comics, uh, the, just the content of the game makes sense to me as to how it's the Punisher. Like to me, I think of hyper violence, shooting everything. Maybe that's not how he acts in, in the, in the comics, but that's how he acts in what I know. So that, that kind of makes sense to me. But we also are playing a video game, which is all about shooting all of the time usually.

18:13 So it does kind of get, uh, watered down a bit. Um, and you do kind of need the interstitial monologues that he has between levels, which I don't even know how, like, are those aside from the Kingpin, are these other enemies from the comics? I don't know. Yeah, I believe so. And, uh, Sean, to prove your point about that, sometimes he does just, he's just that violent guy.

18:38 Uh, there is a run of comics called, uh, The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe, in which he just, in which he just starts going on a, it changes how his, um, how his family was killed so that the X-Men are involved. And he just proceeds to like, oh, I'll, I'll start by killing the X-Men. And then it's like, oh, the Avengers want to get in the way. I'll kill some of them. I'll kill the Hulk. I'll kill Spider-Man. And it's like, he just goes on a killing spree.

19:03 And it's funny, uh, I don't want to spoil the ending or whatever, but like, what they think is like the big twist at the end or whatever, uh, is known to the reader the whole time. So it's really only a twist to Frank, but it's also like, dude, at this point you've killed so many people. Like, this isn't going to wake you up. Like, you know, he's killed the Marvel Universe.

19:23 It's like, there's no, there's no talking to a man who's killed thousands of people. But I mean, by the end of this game, you probably killed about a thousand people. Oh yeah. Yeah. But they all, you know, they all work for the, for the Kingpin. Yeah. They're nameless, faceless people. They're not the Hulk. Right. Do you kill Captain America or does he kill Captain America in that?

19:44 I'm sure he does. That's. He's got to kill everybody in the Marvel Universe. You can't call it the, the Punisher kills the Marvel Universe if he doesn't do that. Uh, and I was, I was talking about how many people you kill because at the end of each level, you do get a, uh, a kill count and then a percentage, uh, of how many, you know, how many people on this, on the level that was. And that does matter because they reward you with some bonuses and stuff based on your score.

20:09 But a 100% clear of a stage is the only way to get the super gun, which is the biggest power up in the game. And, uh, the super gun, uh, gives it to you for the next level. And it does, it does have a limited use. You can't just like, okay, I got the super gun on the first level and now I have it forever. But it is kind of a, um, like the closest this game gets to, yeah, exactly. Closest this game gets to just saying like, okay, it doesn't matter anymore. Like if you have the super gun, everything, everything's trivial.

20:40 Yeah. It's kind of like a minigun fire rate. And even those, those big dudes with the rocket launchers, you usually take, uh, uh, quite a bit to take down and you're going to probably take a rocket launcher hit. Uh, they just disappear off the screen. But I never got the, uh, like 100% route. Uh, did you guys ever, ever do that? Did you ever get like a kill perfect? Okay. Yeah. No. Did it feel rewarding afterwards then to be like, yeah, you know what? Actually you do deserve it if you are able to successfully. Well, that's sort of what I meant.

21:12 Like even these, uh, these more tankier enemies are just kind of get deleted by it. So I think it is a just reward for that kind of, you know, if you a hundred percent the level, it makes sense. Can I, I want to revisit the, uh, the newspapers just cause I, I, I, I really appreciated these newspapers, uh, at least in concept. I like the idea that there's a power up that doesn't actually give your character on screen more power. It gives you information that you may need, but like, isn't necessary.

21:44 The thing is everything that I saw was like a one-time tip of like how to play the game or like things that you should know while playing the game. And I really wish that they had like redone that where it'd be like fifth Avenue deli has, uh, an extra grenades or something like that, where it's like, oh, now I got to keep my eyes out for fifth Avenue deli as I'm scrolling across or, or like things like that, where

22:06 it's like, maybe it could even be like, uh, randomly generated or something where it's like each, each time you play, there's like a, you know, this thing's hidden in a different place. So you got to get the, you have to get the newspapers to know where to get these other bonuses, things like that. I like the idea of it. I just think it, uh, it was very lackluster and execution.

22:25 Yeah. You know, when, when I first came across them, you know, it was in the first level and it did just have basic hints on how to play the game. And I'm like, okay, it's the first level. It's still teaching you how to play. And I figured later it would start to do kind of what you're alluding to. And I, it didn't, in fact, it starts to just say the same stuff all over again. So it's a, it's a wasted, uh, mechanic there for me. Yeah. And the way you enter into any of these levels is there are, uh, three wanted posters and you have to choose, um, uh, your target.

23:01 Did, did, did you just pick whoever looked like, yeah, I want to kill that guy. I went from left to right. Okay. I think I put absolutely no thought at all. I just picked one. Yeah. I mean, it's better than just saying, start the game and going right to stage one. It's nice to feel like you have some kind of agency.

23:21 Uh, but, but yeah, but for the most part, like there's no, there's no change. Yeah. It's not like it's Mega Man. Like there's no, like there's no rock, paper, scissors. Like, oh, I should, I should kill Krieg first before Ninja because it's, it's, I don't know. You get a different gun. Like they're all, all the levels are kind of the same with different, with different like wallpaper and then a different boss at the end, but you have the same tools for all of them. And speaking of these stages, I mean, they're very long.

23:52 Uh, they're not like, oh, just, uh, quickly take out like a few enemies and then fight the boss. A lot of these you'll go from a, to a few different locations. Uh, you'll start in the streets, go up to the roof and then fight a helicopter, or you'll be at the docks, then a prison yard, and then have a fight inside the prison.

24:12 Did you feel like maybe they were too long for like what the game was asking you to do? Or were you supposed to kind of like, was, was this the equivalent of like a, what a quarter eater could have been in the arcade where you're supposed to lose some lives and, and work your way back through it? Maybe. I, I, I found the whole, I, this, this whole like genre of, of like rail shooter is very funny. Um, in 2d, I think, because what I kept thinking as I was playing just with like the speed of which you're moving.

24:49 And it's just like, you're on a, you're on a parade float and you decide to be, you're just going to kill everybody on the side. It's, it's, it's a very funny feeling, um, that he's just sort of like scrolling his way across here. So I do agree that it's, they are very long and it feels kind of like a drag, but at least you can, you can come up with a little head cannons.

25:16 Like the, the punisher is actually just a parade float. And I think it's that Doc's prison one where, uh, you, you fight the boss, uh, Jigsaw, who introduces like melee combat, uh, to the game. It gets close up in your face and finally it's like, yeah, somebody thought to like actually approach you rather than be on the opposite side of the street while you fire off your weapons like crazy.

25:39 Uh, did you love or hate these sudden melee interludes? Uh, I, I thought that there was, you know, at least there's some kind of change because otherwise every level kind of feels the same and you don't really get any kind of, uh, you don't get any kind of unique moments until the bosses and among the bosses, at least it changes it up a bit more. So I, I, I wasn't in love with them, but it was, it was fine. Yeah. I, I'm never like crazy about changing, like changing up the whole gameplay style for like one short thing.

26:18 Uh, so I don't know. It wasn't my favorite. Like, I think I prefer the, like the bosses that you're shooting at because it feels like what I was doing. I like when games do that, if they do it like more in a more rounded way where it's not just like, Oh, this one random time you're doing something completely different. Right. I guess it does make sense that like the helicopter, the tank, like those, those things feel like,

26:40 yeah, you've been firing at things the whole time. Like you should, you should have a big meaty boss that like, yeah, how the hell is Frank going to take the, uh, I shouldn't call him by his first name. How the hell is the Punisher going to take down? Yeah. How the heck is he going to take down a helicopter? Right. How's he going to take down a tank? And like, I don't know if, if those necessarily feel any bigger, like obviously they're different because it's one screen and now you have to dodge a crazy barrage of bullets, but otherwise

27:07 it's just another enemy, right? Like the tank thing doesn't come up with this like crazy new boss mechanic where it's like, yeah, of course you can't just fire at a tank until it blows up. No, you actually can in this game. Yeah. You can just throw a bunch of grenades and then fire up. In fact, a lot of these bosses have a weird thing where like, as long as you have a, a really good, I guess the assault rifle, uh, if you, you can just start firing them before they ever really even like take a shot at you and you can chip away like almost half their health before they start participating in the battle.

27:40 I just thought like, uh, you know, it makes sense that like when you actually get to the, the face to face battles, they're like, yeah, they wouldn't be stupid and just like, you're, you're the most dangerous man with a gun. They shouldn't just be shooting over on the other side. Get up in your face, throw a couple of punches. In fact, where's your gun?

27:57 Yeah. Right. Hit them with your gun, right? They should change like, you know, even go further than what Joe doesn't want and make it like a bumper cars game or, or like, you know, a completely different genre shift. And now you have to walk through a 3d maze, which is all of our favorite mini game in an adventure NES game.

28:17 Uh, like, you know, just go straight Goonies two with it. Um, or just have it be like a puzzle thing too, where this isn't a puzzle, but like very straightforward, uh, just shoot the, shoot the, um, the propeller of the helicopter so that it crashes. Right. It's like, you can't, you clearly couldn't take on a helicopter, but make that like hard to hit. And it's very precise, you know, like you have to hit right on the axle. Uh, I don't know, like that seems more interesting to me than fire a hundred rounds at a helicopter while you're dodging its shots.

28:51 Yeah. I think it's, to me, it comes down to like, as long as the game taught me that this is part of the game before I get to the like boss battle, that's like three quarters of the way through the game. Uh, then I'm like, uh, it's less, it's less abrasive, but it's just like, Oh, we're changing it now. And there was no, it just doesn't feel like I'm playing the same game anymore.

29:13 Yeah. I think that, I think we're being a little too hard on our boy Frankie right now. I would agree that the boss fights just to me, right? The levels are so long and then the boss fight comes and it, it is an opportunity to change up the gameplay a little bit, but it doesn't feel different. One thing that also doesn't feel different is when you're going through the stages and you enter these bonus rooms by like, you know, finding an alley or going down the subway station,

29:42 uh, the location changes and that's, that's nice, right? You go down the subway stairs and now you're in, uh, you're, you're waiting because you're not, you don't get on the train. So it's just like on the platform. It's like a very long, slowly walked on the platform. Right. And everybody's there waiting for you. So they also took over the subway. So again, another reason for the government to intervene, but the, the bonus room, it, it also doesn't change anything.

30:06 The bonus room sounds like when I hear bonus rooms, it sounds like a fun mini game time, but this is just more of the level, but it doesn't really matter. Uh, if you, if you die this time around, like it's just, it's just for points. At least it does have that different background though. I mean, other, otherwise it would just, I guess there is still some value to me in, in the bonuses because you would otherwise would not go to the subway.

30:32 And, and yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I do think that it, it, I, I wish there was a little bonus seed, like, oh, this feels like a different type of level, but I did also find value of like, yeah, you can find more power-ups down. It is just like extra space to find ammo power-ups and things like that. It's like, I get that as well.

30:51 But, but yeah, it was a little surprising to me that it was just like more of the same level. And I get about the scenery changes being nice and everything because I, I, I do think in general, like the sprite work here is pretty good. Like that, that's unmistakably the Punisher, the enemies, even though they're the same, like there's not, you know, the green beret guys are the green beret guys, uh, the ninjas are the ninjas. Like they don't, they're not individual enemies. The world itself is pretty cool. Like it, it, it almost feels like a world in which the, the Ninja Turtles could be hanging out in two, you know?

31:28 And, uh, I think they actually, they technically do because the Punisher who frequently interacts with Daredevil, uh, they, that's how the turtles came to be. It's the same ooze that got on, um, Daredevil's eyes that turned him blind that also spilled into the sewers and created the turtles. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. Well, that's not Marvel sanctioned. Oh, I figured you were making that up. But have, have there been crossovers between like Daredevil and the turtles? There must've been. That's a good question. Cause like TMNT teams up with like Batman, you know, and WWE, like why wouldn't it be? Well, I mean even a cereal box or something. Oh wait, no, nevermind. Uh, it does look like they've teamed up.

32:10 That's the first thing I have. It's canon. But to be honest, I can't tell if this is fan art. I just need to say that right now. That's the world we live in now. It's like, this looks pretty good. Could be fan art, could be in a comic.

32:22 Uh, well, one thing about the game that I found confusing was like, you're just your own hitbox. Uh, because just to go back to the basic premise of, of the mechanics for a second, where you kind of have to move your body and also move your, uh, move your crosshair. You, you move very slowly and especially later in the game, uh, when you, when you're running into, uh, characters with automatic or enemies with automatic weapons, uh, there's, it's really hard to dodge shots. And I don't know if you're supposed to be able to dodge most of them. And I think in a lot of situations you can't even like set your shot without getting hit by like, again, like a, an RPG, which takes away like 80% of your health most of the time.

33:15 Uh, so what did you guys feel about like hit detection? I don't know if I, I don't know if I had much of a, like, I don't, I don't think I noticed too much about it where, so I guess that's a good thing where I didn't like, I didn't feel miffed too much by it or anything like that. I, I don't say, I wouldn't say I noticed it because you do get, uh, a forgiving amount of hits too. Like you're allowed to take a more than one bullet before you die and such. But I agree that it is kind of like this rectangle around you and not necessarily like, oh, those,

33:48 it would be cool to have near misses while strafing. They're like, oh, it just went, you know, in that gap between my shoulder and my head as I was turning. Like that's not going to happen. It's just going to count as a hit. And so that's a little disappointing. I will grant too that like you do get a lot of health too, but it's just in those very specific circumstances where like this enemy is just meant to melt you and, but the rest of them, like they're just going to do little, like little slivers of damage anyway.

34:16 Yeah. And I'll admit that I'm, I'm generally like seeing myself get hit in like my peripheral vision because I'm looking, I like, I'm like, I'm like mostly aware of where these bullets are. And I'm like, I think I'm mostly dodging these, but I think that extra health cushion that makes it easier for me to focus more on the crosshair and be like, yeah, I can, I pretty much dodged all that. And like maybe one hit me. I'm not sure. It's worth mentioning that, uh, that was fan art and that Daredevil and TMNT have never teamed up, but, uh, TMNT has teamed up with Batman, Street Fighter, Power Rangers, Ghostbusters, Stranger Things, He-Man, and the X-Men.

34:56 So. Now have any of them ever teamed up with. Oh, and Mortal Kombat, right? Right. How many degrees of separation? Yes. They did team up with Mortal Kombat. The X-Men live in the same world as the Punisher, right? So where, there we go. Yeah. Well, I want to know why, well, yeah, yeah, but they, they didn't cross over specifically.

35:13 No, but we were, we were looking at that to see if the, if the same New York City, right? Oh, right, right, right, right. I mean, it's gotta be. It's Earth 595. Yeah. Everyone knows this. You can't just say that because someone's going to know what Earth 595 is. I can say whatever the hell I want, Mike. So the big boss at the end of the game is the Kingpin, uh, and you know, it's another one of those, it's pretty much just like Jigsaw except for he's huge. Uh, he's pretty, he's a pretty big sprite in this game. Not as big, not as big as he was in, um, Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse. He's really freaking huge in that movie. Uh, known New York Mets fan, Kingpin.

35:52 But, but, you know, I don't know, as like a, as a final boss thing again, it's just like, okay, yeah, he's just got a lot more health. Okay. Yeah. What did you want out of it? No, I don't, I, I just feel like the Kingpin is the kind of, is the kind of villain in the universe where like very rarely does he have to actually do the fighting, right? He's behind the fights. It's, I, I feel like the finale against him, it should have just been like, and you put a bullet in his head and he's dead.

36:25 It's like, seriously, just go there, right? Like what's the canon explanation for the Kingpin tanking a hundred bullets? I mean, I feel like I've seen it and maybe it was just an enter the Spider-Verse, but isn't he also like a capable fighter?

36:40 Oh yeah, no, absolutely. That's what I'm saying. Like he is good with his fists and stuff, which makes sense that he would, you know, do the melee combat against you. But I, I just don't think like an, uh, a face-off between them should have been like that kind of direct confrontation. The Kingpin should have had, uh, you know, some, some cool arsenal thing that, uh, you know, like, and this is why this is, we're all behind this anyway. It's like, I'm developing this thing that kills everyone's families. Yeah. And he's like, I've got to stop people's families dying.

37:11 It doesn't kill everyone. It just kills everyone's families. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a family killer. Or maybe that's just the Vince D'Onofrio version. Yeah. Kingpin's job actually is just to give every, uh, everybody who has jobs, uh, he wants to create like a six day work week so that they spend less time with their families so that they lead to broken homes. Yeah. More homework during, during the school year too. That should have been the final boss. Like you have to stop that from, you have to work six days now. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Thank you.

38:16 Thank you.

38:44 So it was like, oh, we got to make a big deal about this. Everybody start making Punisher video games. But why everybody make so many different Punisher video games? There's the DOS Punisher game, which is like a hybrid vigilante, I don't want to say simulator, but like there's three modes here where you like, you drive, there's driving stuff, there's on foot street raid stuff. And then there's scuba missions. Scuba missions in New York City? What's he? Scuba diving through the Hudson River? Yeah, the sewers. Yeah. Oh, the sewers probably makes more sense than scuba diving around the Hudson. But maybe he'd run into the Ninja Turtles there. Yeah. That makes sense.

39:22 Then there's the Punisher. You really want that crossover. It would be a great crossover. The Punisher on the Amiga and the Atari ST, those different than the DOS games.

39:33 This one is a single screen first person crosshair shooter where you, you know, other than like being on rails, you kind of like sweep through the rooms, hit all the enemies, avoid all the civilians, and then move clear. You know, that clears and then you move to the next room. So similar enough to this game. But instead of it being automatic, it's kind of like, you know, rapid levels of, okay, clear out this room, clear out that room, clear that room, stage clear. Like WarioWare, but for the Punisher. Exactly. Clear out this room in five seconds. Press the A button as fast as you can.

40:10 Then there was a Game Boy game, also the same year as the Punisher on NES. And it's a, it's basically like a portable version of this game, if you can believe it. But it adds Spider-Man cameos throughout the game. And it's kind of weird that like Spider-Man would be advocating for like, for like, yeah, yeah, can you go down here and shoot up a bunch of people? Like. He just knows his limitations. I guess that's true. Spider-Man doesn't kill people, but he can find a loophole. Yeah, I wonder how Superman feels about other people killing people. Is he okay with that? He's fine with it. Or should he stop people? I think that just proves that Superman is just vain. And, you know, he just doesn't want to get his hands dirty.

40:55 The most noticeable, noticeable, most notable Punisher video game is probably the Punisher 1993 Capcom beat-em-up, which apparently like, it never really came outside of the arcades. So that was like the only way to play it until finally it like showed up in a port of one of those Marvel vs. Capcom fighting collections. It's not a fighting game, but because it was a Marvel and Capcom collaboration, it like, I guess it got included. So that's kind of neat, and it's nice to be able to visit a game that otherwise you could only play on arcades, because, you know, some of these arcade machines now are very hard to find. You can always, if you go to an arcade, there will always be a Space Invaders. There will always be a Pac-Man.

41:38 There's no guarantee you're going to see a Punisher arcade cabinet. No, no. No, but in terms of, I always thought that the more modern, like, PS2 era Punisher games were, like, more popular. Oh, yeah, the third-person shooter ones. You know, I looked at those, because I never played it. Neither have I. There's the one in 2005 for PlayStation 2, and then there actually is a PlayStation 3 Punisher game. Oh. If you can believe it, but it's weird. It's called the Punisher No Mercy. It's an arena multiplayer game, a first-person shooter from Zen Studios built on the Unreal Engine 3, but, like, how does it work? Like, is everybody the Punisher? Is everybody a vigilante?

42:23 Like, is it seven guys? It's an arena shooter with, like, frags and stuff? Well, see, now that's confusing, because it says it's an arena first-person shooter, but I don't know, like, probably, right? Why wouldn't they? See, the way I think they should make this work is that everybody is the Punisher, on their own screen. I am my own Punisher. So, like, you see yourself as the Punisher, but then everyone else you see as just random other people, but they see themselves as the Punisher. So, everyone's got their own headcanon of what's going on here. Whoa. There's a whole plot thing that's three paragraphs long, so clearly, like, there's also a story here, and it's not just some...

43:00 But it is just, like, a multiplayer game, right? Like, this... What else could these... I guess, like, there's probably some single-player thing where you just play against computers, but it just feels weird that, like, yeah, the Punisher is ripe for this kind of spinoff. I don't think so. I agree with you, Sean. The third-person shooter thing, I'm surprised we didn't get more of those. Yeah, especially when you think about, like... I remember, like, I almost bought the game because it had a pretty... Whenever I was paying attention to video game media, it, like, that promo campaign was pretty

43:38 out there, and there was, like, cool ways to kill people, and, like, you know, like, execution animations, and I was like, oh, this is right up my alley, and I never played it, but I don't know. I guess that was in the era of third-person execution stuff.

43:58 Max Payne was already out. Two interesting things about that. I agree with you that I saw a lot of advertising about this game, and I always thought that this iteration of the Punisher looked a lot like the wrestler Scott Hall, Razor Ramon for the older people, but that's just, like, something for me. What's more interesting is that there is, like... There's, like, a weird thing about this game where it was... Yeah. The game originally was, like, way more graphic, apparently, and it was going to get an AO rating, but they censored a bunch of stuff to finally get it to mature.

44:33 But I haven't played a game like this, but when I think of the Punisher, Punisher is just, like, a violent version of Hitman, right? So, like, in Hitman, it's all about making stealth kills. It would have been cool to have, like, a Hitman-style game, but you just play as the Punisher, and the idea is just to, like, cause as much damage as possible. Maybe that's just mercenaries, but, you know, like, there's got to be a spot for the Punisher in that lineup. I agree. And there's always a spot for the Essential Games list.

45:04 Felt like we were getting a little off-topic there, so... Bringing it back in, reminding us that we are talking about the NES game. As far as NES video games go, this is fine. This works. This is... It's kind of, you know, I know LJN gets a bad rap or whatever. It's a fine game.

45:19 I can't say I enjoyed it. I think, like, in terms of, like, who I would recommend this to, it's like... It's like Punisher fans? I don't know. Would it have been better as a Zapper game? I feel like is the big what-if. And I think we kind of said no. I agree that losing the strafing to have a Zapper component would just make this kind of be like another, like, oh, you only remember this because it uses that Zapper, like all the other Zapper games that we remember, specifically because we have to change our controller. I think this is a fine NES shooter.

45:57 But in terms of, like, what gets a game on the Essential Games list, I don't think there's a lot here I could just rattle off. There's... It's just repetitive enemies. It's very long stages. The boss fights aren't particularly inspired.

46:13 And any kind of, like, lore dump of the Punisher happens just kind of, like, inconsequentially to the gameplay. Like, otherwise you're just, like, firing a gun. And it's kind of weird that, like, we never see the Punisher's, like, awesome skull logo on his chest, like, because he's always from the back. Like, you can even kind of see when he bends out when you're, like, moving him. You could see that, like, they maybe even animated it. Like, it'd be funny if it was, what are those, like, those boundary break videos for 3D games?

46:44 Because the other side of the sprite exists. Like, let's do that. Let's boundary break the NES sprite and see what it looks like. Because I feel like that's what I wanted to see more of. And there's really not a lot here. So I don't even know if I would recommend it to Punisher fans. So it's a no for me. But what about you, Joe? I think this is fine is, like, the perfect way to sum this up. Like, I didn't... Yeah, I didn't think it was a bad game. And I think what, like, makes it... What gives it anything, really, for me, is how unique it is with this, like, strafing

47:15 slash controlling the crosshair thing. So, like, that made it kind of fun for a little bit for me. But, yeah, as you can tell by the way I'm saying this, I'm not going to vote it essential. But I do want to say that what I really want out of this game is I want to pull the camera back a little bit so we can see his feet. Because he's just gliding across the screen back and forth the whole time. And I just want to see that. It's a parade float.

47:40 He must have incredible footwork. Like, I'm imagining his feet just, like, you know, crossing over each other, going back and forth, like some sort of, like, football training drill the whole time. So I do want to see what's going on in the way he's walking back and forth so smoothly. Sean? We all know why you want to see his feet, Joe. Yeah, well, you know, I got to add to my collection.

48:01 I want to go back to what Mike said. And I just, I thought you were going to say when you were, like, I'm surprised we don't see his logo. I'm surprised we don't get to see his family die. I thought that's what you were going to say in terms of, like, lore dumps, which I thought was going to be really funny. But you didn't say that, so I'm saying it now.

48:20 Yeah. I think this is a very technically impressive game. Like, again, I'm all about, you know, environmental destruction. It's why I like Rampage. It's why I still think about Red Faction every once in, like, five or six years. Um, so, uh, there's just something very viscerally satisfying about that. But that doesn't, that, that alone doesn't get you on the essential games list. And, um, I have more, uh, I have more thoughts about Tom Jane than I do LJN. So, uh, that will remain. So, yeah, not essential.

49:00 In Batman Arkham City, as Batman, you can find, uh, where your parents, uh, were killed and mourn them. There's, like, a mourn button. Press F to mourn. Yeah, basically. And it plays some music and whatever. And I would have appreciated if one of the, uh, bonus rooms in this game was just the cemetery to go visit, you know, your wife and kid.

49:26 Now, is there a dedicated mourn button on the controller? Like, X is always to mourn? I, no, I, I only played Arkham City on the Xbox 360. And I did everything you can do in that game. Uh, because that was, to me, that was, like, the coolest thing ever. We finally got it, you know? Like, we finally got, like, a whole fleshed out Batman World game. And then they just never figured out how to top it from there. Punisher, there's still room for that. There's still room for a fully fleshed out New York City where the Punisher can find the place where his, uh, wife and kid were shot. They just never knew for that. They just knew for that.

50:19 They knew for that. Thank you.