123 · DONKEY KONG CLASSICS

• The most crucial and decisive battle of World War II is about to be fought
• Introductions
• Overview
  • Donkey Kong and DK Jr TOGETHER
• Menu
  • Donkey Kong star logo
  • Shade of blue seems strange
  • Lots of ™ and ®
  • What’s up with the sun icon for selecting mode
  • AND NOW FOR MY RANT ON SELECT BUTTON
• Gameplay
  • Did the games hold up?
• Development
  • This is not RETURN OF DONKEY KONG...or is it?
• Remake, Remaster, Rerelease
• EGL
  • This was a chance to redeem the lackluster ports of these VERY FIRST famicom games. They chose to do nothing
• Next week - GHOSTBUSTERS

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Donkey Kong Classics! What's more fun than a barrel of monkeys? A Donkey Kong Double Feature!

00:22 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. And guys, today we are talking about DKC, not Donkey Kong Country, Donkey Kong Classics. For the first time ever, Donkey Kong and DK Jr.

00:45 together. Except for they were together in Donkey Kong Jr., but one of them was in jail because of Mario or Jumpman, or actually his name was Mario in that one, not Jumpman like it was in Donkey Kong. And Jumpman and Mario were in both of them, and now it's just the same games put on Donkey Kong Classics. You guys get the idea, right? Yeah, it's easy to follow. So what you're saying is that there are two games on this cartridge. Two games in one, Sean. That's insane. For the same value.

01:15 Yeah. So, you know, I don't know about you guys, but, you know, I remember Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. both pretty well, and when I started up this game, I was kind of surprised to see that the menu had changed. Yeah, the menu is very different now. And maybe we could just, like, talk about that. Well, it's got one of the, like, the classic color gamuts here. Like, you've got sort of like a dark blue, or like a deep blue, and a sort of pinkish red for the title itself. And you've got black and white outline, and then white text, and like a lighter blue for some less important text. So I think it's a really good...

02:04 It's a really good palette to work with. Now, do you think that that light blue with the dark blue is a solid blue dark background, and then the light blue has, like, the copyright information for Nintendo, and the game that's not currently selected? Do you think that that's just a little too close in color for each other? I think that the color is fine. I think what it says politically, though, is wrong.

02:34 I think that it's actually... I feel like it's deliberately close in color, because it's like the game that you don't have selected. So it's supposed to sort of, like, blend into the background a little more. You don't know... It's not supposed to be as prominent as the one that you do have selected. Right. And, you know, this kind of... This is going to get me into a big rant, but I feel like we need to talk about this. Is that in the original black box NES games, first off, there were never solid blue backgrounds. I don't know why Nintendo all of a sudden got crazy here and made a colored background. They were always solid black. That's why we call them the black box games, right?

03:10 Indeed. Yeah. We actually call them the black box games because the boxes are black, Sean. That was a test. But, on top of that, you would hit the select button to change modes in those. Because they always had, like, one player game A, one player game B, two player game A, etc. You know? So you would hit the select button to change between those modes. However, in this menu, you just hit the up and down arrows to select your mode. And you hit the select button to change which game you want to be playing. Now, what really makes that troublesome for someone like me is that I never understood the function of the select button anyway.

03:49 You weren't selecting your choice. That's what the start button is for. You see, the select button is more like an options button to shuffle through the options that are available to you. So when you go from game A to game B, when you hit select, you're really not saying, I want to play game A. You're saying, I would like to select the next option. So why do you think the NES controller has a select button?

04:14 Well, I think it's weird just that they're using it in... I know it's weird that they've used it at all. But it's weird that they're using it in this. If they're using up and down to go up and down, why aren't they using left and right to go left and right? Joe, that's blowing my mind. And I feel like that's why, you know, maybe a lot of people didn't buy this game because there's too much of a barrier to entry. Like, you have to be a computer whiz to figure out how to operate it. Well, to be fair, they put that in the manual, you know, like they do explain how to choose all this stuff there.

04:43 So thankfully, as long as you can read... Nobody wants to read that thing. Joe, I just tested the game. And if you press left or right on the main menu, it does go between Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. Oh, it does. So the select button... It does do left and right. Does the select button also do that? It very well may. I did not test that. I just wanted to make sure I could tell if you were wrong. Great. Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Well, I was only going off of what Mike had just said, that select switches between Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. And then up and down switches between game A and game B.

05:16 And you know what? I also just checked and the select button does do that as well. But I wanted to make sure that we were 100% correct. But if you ask me, like, why this system has a select button, I don't know. Because I usually see the position that that button is placed. That button is only for sharing gameplay footage. And I guess, like, they just decided that they didn't want to do that with the NES and maybe this game specifically.

05:46 But every other game that I've played, that button is just for taking screenshots and streaming on Twitch. That's true. And, you know, another thing that I'm noticing now that I look at this menu screen a little more is that Donkey Kong, the O's in Donkey Kong have the stars from the arcade cabinet logo for Donkey Kong. And that's pretty nice. I always thought that was a little presumptuous. Like, you know, I didn't play this on the arcade cabinet. So why is it trying to force that aesthetic choice on me? Well, here's my theory on that. If you go back to the original Donkey Kong for the NES menu screen, there's no star in the actual title. But the cursor that indicates which game mode you've selected is an asterisk.

06:39 Okay, so I think when Donkey Kong Jr. came out, they brought in a new asterisk, a yellow one instead of a blue one. So they retired the original asterisk and put a star in the junior to represent that original asterisk. And now I think in this one, there are two stars, one representing the original Donkey Kong, one representing Donkey Kong Jr., and then a new asterisk representing this union.

07:06 Yeah, that's actually a very insightful look at that. But to me, like, whatever symbolism and allegory it has in its typography, all I can see is the O's look too much like A's and it looks like it says Donkey Kong classics. I would agree with that if there were any other O's on this screen that didn't have the star. I would agree that that would be a little confusing.

07:32 Thankfully, the only O's on the screen also have the stars. And there's an A in classics that shows us the difference between, like, what an A in this typeface looks like versus an O. Right, I agree if you're thinking about it that much. But to Sean's point, it could also be another, like, barrier to entry. People don't know what game they're playing because they don't even get to the word classics.

07:55 By the time they read Donkey Kong, they're not sure what those letters are and they turn it off. I'm already out. Like, they've lost me once I've read those first two words. Really, anyone who doesn't have a law degree can't play this game because there's so many trademarks and reserves and copyrights.

08:13 It's true. It's intimidating. I think this is also the end user license agreement, like, for the game. Well, because I also wonder, like, when I look at the screen, like, will I go to jail if I play this game? Like, I don't, it's a registered trademark. Can I play it? You can't actually display these things on your television without the express written consent of Nintendo. Gotcha. They usually say stuff like that in the, on the manual anyway, at the end. And there's, like, a whole thing, a final page of, like, don't put this on a chair. Don't leave this on for more than 50 minutes. There's a whole set of, like, rules that you legally agree to when you buy these games. I forgot about not leaving it on chairs. Well, because someone could sit on it.

08:57 It's true. Exactly. Well, one nice thing about this menu, though, is that, so there is a box or a frame around Donkey Kong classics. And it would have been really easy for them to just make a rectangular box. Like, fine, easy.

09:14 No one probably would have complained. But they really went. They got those divots. Yeah, they went the extra mile. And since Donkey Kong, those two words together, are longer than the word classics, they made a longer portion of the box to fit Donkey Kong than classics. Which really just shows, like, how much care went into this game. Because I know anyone who's used Microsoft Paint or Photoshop or anything knows that it's really easy to just grab that rectangle tool and make a perfect regular rectangle. And if you didn't want to, like, put in the extra work, you just leave at that.

09:43 Sure, Joe. I mean, it's true. This is better than just a rectangle. But from my point of view, they shouldn't have been boxing this in any way. You know what? Be a man and make a drop shadow. You know? It doesn't have to have a box surrounding the letters. Just let the letters stand with a drop shadow. Yeah, it is hard to see the letters a little bit with that red against blue. Yeah. I mean, again, it's one of the classic color palettes of our time. But you're right, it does make it hard to see.

10:13 Do you guys think they're assuming too much here, though, by having Donkey Kong be selected first? Like, automatically, if you don't know that you can select Donkey Kong Jr., you might think that you only bought Donkey Kong. Right. And I have no idea how you select Donkey Kong Jr. math. It's not even clear. It's not in the manual. You know what? That's something I wanted to get into. When it's Donkey Kong classics, and there's no Donkey Kong 3, and there's no Donkey Kong Jr. math, this is an incomplete collection. No Donkey Kong country. Or they're saying those aren't the classics. They very well may be saying that, but who gave them the right to say what is and is not a Donkey Kong classic?

10:56 The fans should have to say. Should have their say. You know, this is just a minor nitpick thing, but it's bothering me now. Did you guys notice that one player, one player, two player, two player, the way it's structured on game A, game B, game A, game B, those are not, those are like one word. Whereas game A and one player are all separately spaced with appropriate spacing, one player does not have a space between one and the P in player.

11:24 Yeah, that is interesting. I actually haven't noticed that, but I'll never unsee that now. Yeah, I don't like that, but I think the biggest crime, and while it may be like this in other games, I still think it should be one player game A, and then two player game A, and then one player game B, and two player game B. I think it should be separated by the game type, and not by how many players. And why did they just stop at A and B? They could have went all the way to Z.

11:55 Right, right. And it's like they could have just done... A, B, C, and D, and then you have to figure out for yourself, you know, make it a little more of a challenge for the player to figure out if it's going to be one player or two player and which game it's going to be. Or there could be no menu at all and would just randomly drop you into any assortment of games. Oh, I like that. Kind of like a, like Togepi's metronome move. From Pokemon, for those of you that don't know. Everyone knows. You know, I don't want to harp on the menu for too much longer, but just looking at the Donkey Kong Classics typeface again, since Sean really opened my eyes to this.

12:32 You know, does anyone else think that the L on Classics is just a little, little thin and longer than all of the other spacings on any of the other letters? I didn't notice the thin, but I definitely think it's like taller. No, no, no. It's not taller, but it's, it's the, the bottom part of the L is actually longer than the rest of them. It takes up too much space. It's terrible kerning. Kerning. That's the word I was looking for.

12:57 So honestly, this is, you know, this, this is the best of times, the worst of times on this menu right now. Well, I think though. Because I can't get over, the colors are just so great though. But the one thing that we're all missing here is that if speaking of the colors, the background color, if you look at the negative space between the E and the Y, it's a backwards F. So is that telling you that like this game is going to be like an F grade or is it going to be like fantastic? Maybe it's saying that this game is fantastic.

13:30 And, and how Japanese of them to just in, you know, the way they're centering the font, the ass in classics is like front and center. It's definitely, there's definitely some like hidden innuendos there.

13:46 Joe, you had mentioned, you know, at the closer to the top of this show about the, the blue star and the yellow star that, uh, or asterisks, whatever that select the game mode for you. Mm-hmm. And, you know, do you ever think we'll see the yellow asterisk in like Super Smash Brothers as a character? I think it's already an item. Well, I, I think that the, the yellow asterisk has become, is actually the angry son in, in Super Mario Brothers 3. I think that's where it ended up. That makes sense. That, I, that works out for me. And I, I appreciate you adding that to the Super Mario lore.

14:24 Right. Yeah. I mean, I, I just assumed that everyone kind of like figured. It's never been like explicitly stated, but it's like, look at it. It's an asterisk. It's a yellow asterisk.

14:33 Now, do you think that there's any significance to how many points are on the asterisk? Because there's eight. And usually when I see an asterisk, I see maybe six. Is there, is there some numerology happening here? Like, uh, is this, is this pointing to how many games Donkey Kong will eventually be in? Uh, or how many they plan? Well, you know, the NES is an eight bit system, so they could only, they could only hold up to eight directions on the asterisk. You're right. I forgot.

15:06 Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Instead of six, which they would have tried to do if they had enough. Mm-hmm. Right. If they were 16 bit. Right. Then there's a six in the number. So then they can do six. Obviously. Yeah. But another thing about the asterisk I'm actually just noticing now is that it's really just sort of like, if you look at all the two vertical points and the two horizontal points, they're connected to the center. But the diagonal points are just kind of tacked on, almost like they're behind it.

15:34 So is it even really an asterisk or is it like, yeah, is it like a star and then an X behind it? I think it's saying that it's actually taking a religious stance. Exactly. Well, you know that guy on YouTube? That guy on YouTube who like boundary breaks the games? Yeah. I think we need to do like a Donkey Kong Classic boundary break and see what's behind the asterisk. How much depth there really is in there. And I bet you, honestly, I bet you like if we start doing that, we'll notice that like the P in player is really small but close to the camera and the L is like gigantic but really far away from the camera.

16:10 You know, once you shift it, it's a whole different picture. Well, now that I'm looking at it, and this is the last thing I'm going to say on the asterisk until we can actually get some research. But if you look at it, if you squint just a little bit, it's actually a picture of a windmill. Like the back side of a windmill. Oh, yeah. Because, yeah, because you can see the center pole and that square shaped thing in the middle. That's the building itself. And then, you know, the diagonal lines, those are the blades of the windmill. That would make a lot of sense because wasn't there, isn't there like some theory? Isn't there something where the character of Donkey Kong is based on Don Quixote?

16:55 I believe so, yeah. Okay, last thing on the asterisk, and then we're moving off of this. But, you know, because it has eight points and everything, do you think that that could just be like the spider's legs? And that's a spider? And maybe that's the spider that like bit Peter Parker and turned him into Spider-Man? Here's why I don't think that's the case, and that's because most spiders don't have legs that come out of their face.

17:19 And whatever, like, direction that this spider may be facing, one of its legs would have to be coming out of its face if that were a spider. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, that's true, actually, because there's one that's facing directly forward. But if it were true, it would be kind of interesting because, Sean, you keep talking about this unique color palette, red and blue.

17:44 That's Spider-Man's color. That's his color. And those are the colors of Spider-Man, yeah. So, I mean... Now, I did not say red and blue. I said, like, an off-red. It's more of, like, a pinkish red, which is not Spider-Man.

17:59 It's more a color associated with Crazy Quilt. So, I think it may be, like, a cross-promotion between DC and Marvel. Well, that's fair, unless it's kind of more based on the first Sam Raimi film where he's wearing those, like, pajama Spider-Man. I feel like it's closer to those colors than his actual Spider-Man suit. It's very possible. I just don't see it, like, in the canon. Mm-hmm. That's fair. Now, had the game not been called Donkey Kong Classics, what would you have called it that you think would maybe fit better within the realm and design constraints of this menu screen? Spider-Man 4. Yeah, I see. Like, you could say that. I wouldn't say that.

18:49 I would... But you could. You could say that. You could put those syllables together and say those words. Mm-hmm. But I wouldn't. Because here's what I would call it. I would call it... I would... You know, because two games, Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr., I would make a portmanteau of those two games and call it Donkey Kong Jr. Oh! Oh, I like that. Yeah. For anybody keeping score at home, the red in Donkey Kong Classics is actually hashtag D33355.

19:27 And the blue is color hashtag 2300B7. I don't know if I'm allowed to legally give out those hexadecimal values. No, no, no. Yeah. We're going to have to cut that. Yeah. But now you can picture it. But I think to Joe's point, it would help you picture it better had you have known those hex values. That's true. Yeah. It's... I do have a... Everybody can kind of translate hex value to color in their head. Yeah. That's how seeing works.

19:58 Here we go. We're finally here. Performing for you. If you know the words, you can join in two. Put your hands together. If you want to clap. As we take you through this funky rap. Hey, P.K.

20:18 Punky Kong. He's the leader of the bunch. You know him well. He's finally back to kick saw's tail. His coconut gun can fire in spurts. If he shoots you, it's gonna hurt. He's bigger, faster, and stronger too. He's the first member of the D.K. crew. Hey, P.K. You know, Joe, that is a good point that that's what seeing is for. And, you know, speaking of just seeing the menu, there's also, like, an entire game here. Just beyond the menu. There's two, actually. You're right. Wait. There's Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. Donkey Kong Jr. Yes. Now, how do these games hold up for you, Sean? Um, I mean, they, I remember when we, when we did our very intimate Donkey Kong sessions, just you and I.

21:18 I can't even remember what our verdict was on how they, on how they, they handle the day. But they play exactly the same. There's absolutely no difference. Um, in fact, I remember when we were talking about the omission of one of the Donkey Kong levels, we thought it was just because, you know, there's not enough space on the, the ROM.

21:44 Um, but the fact that they could squeeze in Donkey Kong Jr. on this thing makes me very much doubt that. Yeah, I'm in 100% agreement with you there. I'm kind of surprised that they would, uh, bring Donkey Kong exactly the same here, put Donkey Kong Jr. on it, and still not give us the Pie Factory level. Yeah. So, I mean, it actually makes me more angry at this game for not being complete.

22:09 It's funny, too, because I, I always thought that, too, that it's, like, just, it was just a space issue. But then we just think about all of the other, like, hundreds of games we're playing. They all fit more on it than, like, what seems to exist in these three levels of Donkey Kong. So now that I think about it, why would I have ever thought that? Like, why did I ever think that?

22:29 Well, you know why? Because it, it, it would, you're putting good faith in Nintendo here. But they don't care because they made this, they released this version of Donkey Kong back in 1983 as the very first game for the Famicom. And Donkey Kong Jr. was the other launch title for the Famicom. So when you have two launch title Famicom games, you bring them over to North America and you change nothing about them.

22:54 And then you re-release them together and say, okay, but we're still going to leave them exactly the same. The only person you're helping there is the person who got screwed over the first time when they bought Donkey Kong. So they don't feel inclined to buy this classic version. Yeah. The fact that there is nothing added makes me wonder, like, what the point was.

23:19 If it's just, if it's the equivalent of games going on sale and you get two for one because they're so old now, maybe. But I guess I don't really know aside from maybe this being bundled. Yeah. I think of bundling it as, like, kind of the best way that I can think of it. I mean, if you think about it, I'm sure, like, everybody that you've ever met has once owned Super Mario Duck Hunt. Like, right? Like, everybody had that somewhere. Super Mario slash Duck Hunt. And I just felt like that was just such a normal thing. I was like, yeah, it made sense. Even though I never really thought about it. It made sense. Yeah. You just put two games together that are really popular.

23:57 So maybe it was just like they knew people would buy this bundled together, you know? I think it's a smart move to bundle the games, especially something like Donkey Kong, which was huge in the arcades when it came out. Another thing that we're not really considering, and I'm going to continue to seesaw my opinion on this as I go on. But Donkey Kong is the big Nintendo name right now in terms of, like, mascot characters, right? Super Mario Brothers took off in 1985 and everything.

24:26 But Donkey Kong is, like, what really started Nintendo on this hot track of video games. And it's only once, like, Mario continues to have success with Super Mario Brothers and Super Mario Brothers 3 and Super Mario World. Like, you know, he becomes the face. But Donkey Kong is, like, the start of everything. And Mario is just a character in that universe. Now it's almost like this release of Donkey Kong Classics is supposed to usher in, like, the, oh, but don't forget about our mascot, Donkey Kong. Like, we want everyone, you know, brand awareness and everything. And that makes sense. But then they go on to never release another Donkey Kong game until Donkey Kong 94. Yeah, this seems to be the last gasp of Donkey Kong as the mascot.

25:14 But beyond that, they're not doing, they're not putting their all into saving him. You know? You'd think that they would make a better game. Yeah, it almost feels like, right, it feels like you would want this Donkey Kong Classics, you would want, like, Super Mario Classics, in which we get, like, Super Mario Brothers and Super Mario Brothers 2, the Japan one, on the same cart. And that's how you, like, alleviate the stress of buying, like, Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan.

25:41 You know, instead we get Super Mario Brothers 2 here later on this year and what would be referred to as Super Mario Brothers USA moving forward. But I feel like that would have been an appropriate way to introduce the Japanese version of Super Mario Brothers 2 to this American audience is by bundling it with Super Mario Brothers 1. It's this way it's like you get the game you love plus a brand new version of that same game.

26:04 Whereas Donkey Kong Classics isn't really offering any kind of, like, incentive. Yeah, there's no additional value here. Yeah. If you already own the games, there's no reason to buy this. So, Joe, you weren't on the Donkey Kong episode, but how do you feel about, like, Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr.'s video games? I mean, on one level, as, like, you know, as playing it on an NES and it being very obvious that this is an older arcade game, I think that shows to me a lot. This doesn't feel like if I had no nostalgia for Donkey Kong in the arcade, I don't think I'd be that interested after playing it on the NES.

26:41 But then even, I think, as an arcade game, just my personal preference, I've always thought it was a little more popular than it is good, at least in my opinion. I mean, it's fine. I know you guys really liked it a lot on the episode, if I remember correctly. I think it's fine. It's fun. It's a game. It operates. Historically, it's very important. But I just always think that, like, it doesn't stand out to me. Got it. I think I'll say that Donkey Kong Jr. is not getting better as I continue to play more video games.

27:12 But Donkey Kong has always had, like, a soft spot for me, and maybe it's just because I played it early on in my life that I still enjoy it. However, I do have one very specific nitpick about Donkey Kong here. And that is that they're in the NES version specifically, not the arcade, there just seems to be a, like, muscle memory error in me that causes me to miscount the number of climbs on a ladder. And I always seem to, like, just be one too short before I, like, am able to move left or right before I'm actually able to. Yeah, I did the exact same thing. I was just stuck on that, just hovering above the ladder, acting like I was still on it, and a barrel was coming right from my face.

27:59 I'm glad I'm not the only one. Just to give you a little development thing here, in an early issue of Nintendo Power, they referenced the return of Donkey Kong, which is the name of the video game. And there's, like, a little teaser about it. We'll link to it in the show notes. This is not that return of Donkey Kong game.

28:21 Or is it? See, I would argue that this is the return of Donkey Kong game, and that they were never working on, like, a Donkey Kong 4 or a new version of Donkey Kong. And that the return of Donkey Kong was just teasing the Donkey Kong classics thing. And maybe Nintendo of America, who works on Nintendo Power, just didn't get the memo that this is what it was going to become. But I do think hyping up a return of Donkey Kong and not getting the Donkey Kong game I pitched back on the Donkey Kong 3 episode, which is finally being able to control Donkey Kong and fight Mario that way, which would have been an amazing game. To never get that, and to have this instead be the return of Donkey Kong, it hurts.

29:06 No, I was just going to say, I think, like, for us looking at it now, or at least for me looking at it now, it seems so much less of a big deal because it's like, yeah, a bunch of these things exist from the past. But, you know, if you do think about it in the lens of, like, you are a Donkey Kong fan in the 80s and you're waiting for this new game to come out and then the new game is just the old game. I can see why that is, like, a much bigger deal than, like, now just being like, oh, why is this bundled? Well, I mean, I also don't think that, as much as we've kind of messed around, I don't think that anyone was fooled by this. I don't think that there was an announcement and lots of anticipation about these two games on the same cart.

29:50 Right. But it just seems odd that this would be the business decision. Unless it was bundled with the console. Yeah, feels like you would want to at least include Donkey Kong 3, but they were smart enough not to include that, thankfully, because I hate that game. Yeah. Hey, yo! Look out, down below Here he comes, Banana Slammer Come on, go, hero Hey-oh Donkey Kong, let's go, let's go Here he comes, Banana Slammer

31:06 Anyway, you know, this was just making me think about something that's pretty It's having a moment in the video game industry since at least the tail end of the or maybe the, sorry, the beginning of the PS4, Xbox One generation of consoles and that's that whole like remake, remaster, re-release trend of video games that we always see Where do you guys like find yourself in the mix of all these things? Are remakes okay? Are remasters preferred?

31:37 Do you even pick up games that are just straight re-releases? I'm thinking about like that Mafia trilogy that just got announced and was released like simultaneously and that's like the weird mix of like one game is a straight up re-release the other one's a remaster and the first one's a remake like that is super strange, right? We never really see something like that Yeah, but I think it's super interesting and I'm not for or against one over the other I think that there are a lot of remakes that have done good by its source material

32:13 There are a lot that have completely just wasted it Like I remember there was a game from the 90s, Syndicate which was like a, not tactics, it was like a squad-based shooter And then Syndicate comes out on like PS3, Xbox 360 generation and it's just another FPS game So that was a remake that nobody asked for and nobody liked

32:41 But you can also ruin remasters Like when Silent Hill 2 and 3 were released together that sounded like the perfect thing for me to buy on the newer systems but they actually mess those games up They are objectively worse than their original So I think like it really depends on why the games are being remastered Is it because the developers think that they deserve better fidelity or is it because they're trying to make a quick buck? So I kind of have a muddled opinion on them all Yeah, got it And Joe, I just would love to hear before you dive deeper I'd love to hear your thoughts on just like what counts as a re-release for you what counts as a remaster and what counts as a remake Well, so the way I always looked at it was that a remaster is

33:40 is if something is taken the original files, the original game is taken and maybe up-resed and maybe a few little like interface details are added and it's made compatible with like the current generation That could not be the actual definition but that's what I always assumed I would agree with that Whereas a remake is like either taking the original game and using it as your roadmap to make the game again now with the current technology like the Crash Bandicoot Insane Trilogy which is literally just the original games now with better graphics, a little better controls and, you know, a few other little things added to it but it's like clearly a game that was made from scratch or something like the Ratchet & Clank

34:25 remaster of the original game which, I'm sorry, remake of the original game which is really what I would, not to add too many re-words into it but I would consider more of a re-imaginate where it's here's a new origin story with some references to the original but it's a completely new game

34:45 See, I would just call that a remake But didn't we say that Crash Bandicoot is also a remake where it is the original game? I thought that was your definition of a remaster If I said that, that I I meant a remaster being like if you were to take Crash Bandicoot on the PS1 take that exact game and up-res it whereas remake being you take that game and use it as your roadmap to make the game again with like all new assets

35:11 Yeah Or a remake I think would also be the like a remake is I think like a re-imagining also is like a subset of a remake which is like just my own arbitrary definition but No, I understand

35:25 Right, I see what you're saying, Joe It's worth asking like is is Metal Gear Solid The Twin Snakes a remake of Metal Gear Solid 1 or is it its own game because it differentiates itself enough similar to like the new Final Fantasy 7 remake you know I haven't played it but if the source material is different enough is it a remake or is it a re-imagining like a new category of things They're both remakes and I think that there are two different flavors there's the remake which is like well it may not be the same code like a remaster it it hits the same beats it plays in the same genre with maybe one system fiddled with and then there's the more there's the more

36:18 full makeover sort of remake where it may even change genres like as long as it it has enough borrowed from the original it still qualifies as a remake to me So Sean that checks out for me and this is this is just a test of your opinions and stuff so I just want to hear your true input on this but like so for Final Fantasy 7 switching from turn-based to ARPG right like say Fire Emblem did that with like an older entry in their strategy RPG but now they made it more like a action adventure style game

36:56 where they still follow the same the same characters and plot and those things happened but now it happened under a completely different genre of video games would you still put that in the remake territory I say I would I'm just wondering where you would think about that something like that it's that's very interesting because they are both games that much of their identity comes from the the systems the gameplay systems maybe not not just the story or not just the setting but Final Fantasy as a series used to be the typical turn-based

37:33 each both of you stand on different sides of the room and tick turns hitting each other sort of thing like that was that was just as descriptive of Final Fantasy as Cloud Strife and Midgar were but over time the series changed it there were different battle systems and now like Final Fantasy can be any number of different kinds of games whereas you would think that's the same with Fire Emblem but there's a much more purest element to I think like people who enjoy Fire Emblem games that if you changed just like if it wasn't the tactics game I don't think people would call it Fire Emblem anymore so

38:17 I think it it's interesting question and I don't think I can answer it I would still call them I would still call it a remake but it would probably be a subpar remake if they decided it wasn't going to be tactics anymore whereas I don't feel the same about Final Fantasy 7 since Final Fantasy in general has been moving towards that ARPG

38:40 ever since 7 got it and you know it's a very long answer I think it's good when it comes down to it you know I think all three of these things even though there are so many of them right now I think it's all good by me and it just comes down to a case by case basis you know like I enjoy remakes in the sense of seeing a game that was you know maybe at one time highly praised but has you know as time goes on has become kind of obtuse like it's cool to see those kind of games get a remake so this way you can play them the way the games are currently being played

39:17 you know and then on the same thing remasters I think that's neat but at a certain point that kind of only has a certain amount of generational leaps to it like no one's making Chrono Trigger remastered and just using 2D sprites and just making them better looking that's just not happening aren't they haven't they done that a few times not super recently but in the last few years but do you guys consider those like do you consider that like a remaster of Chrono Trigger or just like a re-release of Chrono Trigger like which one does that fall under for you I would consider some of the stuff they've done with Chrono Trigger remaster like the I know it was a while ago now but the DS

39:59 release yeah I consider that a remaster they did add some new content and they but they also like adjusted the interface to be a little you know a little less intrusive I mean I guess because they had two screens they were able to do that but but they changed enough where I would consider that to be a remaster and I even had to do PlayStation 1 cutscenes so that's right even on PlayStation 1 was that I mean I guess that would be a remaster technically I think it would have to be right it is a remaster I think that once you get to things like Skyrim which gets released on everything and it doesn't matter which it doesn't matter which generation it's on I just keep calling those re-releases even though I guess there was a remaster at one point but

40:47 yeah the lines blur a little bit but you just kind of go with your gut I would I would call the various Chrono Trigger releases remasters because they do change art which I wouldn't do in a re-release right as we've been talking about this too I've been kind of grappling with what my opinion is on what kind of remake I like better or like I would generally prefer for someone to do because I do think that this might just be a coincidence but but the examples I mean I can only really think of one right now but I think like anytime where someone does a remake where they're

41:29 they're really trying to just retell the story in a new way or like use just like use the the source as inspiration but change it a lot I think like I find that to be the more ambitious choice and and maybe there's more potential for something better because you're getting something new but like I'm thinking of Ratchet and Clank where they did that and I think it just failed because

41:53 they're taking I mean I know it succeeded and I know it was like a popular game I personally thought that they were taking a game that was a classic because it was so good and they tried to change so many things and make it so different that just like the odds are they've made a worse game and I and I think that that is like the the risk reward I feel like it's I feel like I'm more wary wary of

42:17 a game doing that because I'm more worried that they're going to screw it up hopeful that they'll do better but then when someone does like I'm just going to remake this game exactly the way it was with all new assets like they did with Crash Bandicoot or like they did with Shadow of the Colossus where they changed very little things kept it mostly intact at least I know I'm getting that game which I know there's like a problem it's like you're just getting the same thing again but now I can play it on current gen systems and it can look prettier there are definitely more ways to fail with a remake than there are with a remake because I was trying to come up like decide like do I

42:51 prefer them to just stick to the to the way it originally was and just up res it and I think that's where my brain goes because I've had more good experiences with that but then if I think like more philosophically like should you just take like not try and change anything like if you can make a better game of course try but I just think that there's it's all a big non sequitur but I just wanted to talk about that I think there's more room

43:18 for failure like you said all right I mean this has been a great discussion and I'm not sure how much of it has to do with Donkey Kong classics which I think definitely falls under the whole just like re-release category and within the same within the same system that it it debuted on which is strange you know like like usually a re-release at least happens like a system later or something like you would see it on the on the super NES but

43:43 you know I think we should wrap this up with our essential games list votes so you know we can keep that as brief as we want but let's get into the essential games list okay Joe since you were not on the original episode I'd love for you to vote first okay well spoiler for my original the original episode for either of these I would say that neither of these as stand alones were essential games

44:09 so I don't think putting them together makes them makes them essential to me sorry there's not much much for me to explain there so that's just kind of my my short and sweet essential games let's vote not essential all right great and Sean yeah regardless of whether these uh individually were essential or not uh it would it this wouldn't be essential to smashing them together so uh my perfunctory no vote has been cast you know this was a this

44:40 was a chance to redeem uh the lackluster ports of the very first Famicom games you know like I think people were a little more forgiving because it was the first thing like the Famicom was built to play Donkey Kong and now in 1988 uh you know five years later and they've chose to do nothing to change these and I get that like in terms of console games at this point playing arcade games like this is a totally fine way to play Donkey Kong but it's

45:09 not even the complete version and that's just so strange and then to like to like have the full version of Donkey Kong Jr. but not the full version of Donkey Kong and put them on the same cart I don't really know what's going on here it's it's it's a little bizarre so it does it doesn't get on the essential games list but I would like to say that even if Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. weren't on the essential games list there was a chance for a game that combines both of them changes enough and adds in like

45:36 some extra features as well there's a chance to like make a game like that get on the essential games list so they did squander an opportunity here so it's not too late though it's not too late Nintendo if they want to re-release Donkey Kong Classics 2 for the NES for the NES we're buying all right Donkey Kong all stars for anybody who made it all the way through this episode congratulations we talked about we talked about so much so thank you so much for listening next week we have Ghostbusters

46:09 so you know anyone who lived through the 80s loves that movie and everything that came after it for the Ghostbusters and including every single film they love every single film version of Ghostbusters I've never heard of somebody that did it so with that in mind we're going to look forward to playing the NES Ghostbusters game next week and you should play along too and listen to the episode if you can you can find us on Twitter at Nostalgia Cast I'm Michael Esposito you can find me at Esposito Film on Twitter and I'll talk to you soon you I'm blue I'm blue I'm blue I'm