Nintendo made and published this 1988 combo cartridge, with Super Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt on one cart. All four hosts were there, Mike, Sean, Joe and Sam, after two episodes with just Mike and Sean. We have talked about Super Mario Bros. in almost every episode, so much of this one became a detour into Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan. The combo itself stayed off the Essential Games List.

The combo

Classics in one box. Sean said they defined owning an NES, and bundling them is a cheap way to bring in people who hadn't bought one yet. Duck Hunt is frozen in time, and Joe still absolutely loves it.
Easy math. We figured the cart goes for about 99 cents, against roughly $8 and $12 for the two games separately. Bootleg carts like 52 in 1 are a better deal on paper, though you wonder what you would do with 2,000 versions of Solitaire.
The fever dream. We pictured a mash-up: one player is Mario, another shoots enemies with the Zapper, the Koopas are "turtle ducks," and Bowser giggles at you like the dog.

The detour: Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan

We played it as a surprise for listeners, since we had just played the American Super Mario Bros. 2.

A ROM hack. It is an expert mode with no friendliness in the design, as if Nintendo was angry that people were good at the original.
It punishes exploring. The first obvious pickup is a poison mushroom that kills you, a spring and some warp zones send you back to the start, and a hidden block is the only way past an unjumpable chasm in 2-2.
Eight clears for more levels. Beat it eight times in a row without resetting and worlds A through D unlock, another 16 levels. It sounds like an April Fool's joke. The ending pays 100,000 points, which we compared to points for Gryffindor.

Nobody beat it. Howard Phillips, quoted in the episode, called it "Undeserved punishment."

The bottom line

Skip it. The combo cart stayed off the Essential Games List, though the vote split. Super Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt are already on the list separately.

Sam and Joe said yes. Sam called it a great incentive for people late to the NES, and it was the first NES game he played. Joe liked that you don't have to switch cartridges, and admitted it was a "cop-out answer." Sean and Mike said no: a cart should not get on the list just because it holds two essential games, and Mike called himself a "snooty collector."

We would not have put Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan on the list either, though it was ineligible. Joe called it essential only for Mario fanatics, and Sean called it an expansion pack.

Written from our conversation in this episode.

TAKE AIM, FIRE, AND SAVE THE MUSHROOM PRINCESS?
Introductionmmms
- Let’s talk about if these games were combined
How do you feel about these games?
- SMB is different enough from SMB 2
- Duck Hunt really is a novelty. It doesn’t seem to be part of the NES vision anymore
  - There was a time this was an entertainment center pitch. Now it’s obvious that it’s just for video games. Kinda like the Wii. It started with bowling and golf games. Then as the years went on things like Wii Fit were the oddities and video games like Galaxy were the norm.
Is this the ultimate deal?
- Don’t forget about the 52-in-1
SUPER MARIO BROS. 2 (FOR REAL)
- Does not have two-player mode in the game. Mario or Luigi has to be played alone. Mario retains the same abilities as Super Mario Bros., but Luigi returns with the ability to jump higher than Mario can. But this decision was made before SMB USA
- An abundance of hidden blocks, enemies, short platforms, pits
  - World 2-2
- New Game Features
- World 9
  - Playing through the game without warping forward takes the player to the Fantasy World.
- Worlds A-D
  - Completing the game eight times also unlocks Worlds A-D, with Princess Peach waiting to be rescued from a fake Bowser
Development
- “As I continued to play, I found that Super Mario Bros. 2 asked me again and again to take a leap of faith and that each of those leaps resulted in my immediate death. This was not a fun game to play. It was punishment. Undeserved punishment. I put down my controller astonished that Mr. Miyamoto has chosen to design such a painful game.” - HOWARD PHILLIPS
- Tezuka felt that Japanese players had mastered the original game, and so needed a more challenging sequel
- Miyamoto said they just had so many ideas leftover from 1 they had to make 2
Sequels and Spin-offs
- All stars and Deluxe
  - You can save
  - In deluxe you need 300k points to unlock SMB for Super players
- It did come to Wii Virtual Console
There’s also this game called VS Super Mario Bros. that is different and we have to play that sometime as well.
EGL - This is a less special version of SMB 1. If this came first SMB wouldn’t have been as big a hit. Still revolutionary for its time, but it would have set bad design precedents for the industry.
Next week -

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Super Mario Bros. Duck Hunt! Take aim, fire, and save the Mushroom Princess?

And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. I'm Joe. And I'm Sam. It's a full house ladies and gentlemen After two episodes of just me and Sean Doing a little What would you call that Sean? I'd say it's a fireside chat with Mike and Sean But now it's a family reunion Yeah it's a family reunion The only reason I skip a couple episodes here and there Is so we can have the chats and then the reunion He does have to leave us alone every once in a while It gets a little steamy Yeah I might be a strange jungle I guess

But I give real good Christmas presents That's right So can we talk about the fact that Nintendo combined Super Mario Brothers and Duck Hunt Okay so they really didn't do that But like if they did combine those two games What would they be? You mean like combine them into like one actual game Like you're doing them together? Yeah like one game called Super Mario Brothers Duck Hunt I'd love to see what we've been talking about Since I think the first Duck Hunt episode Because I guess now we have two

Where you have one player playing as Mario And another player shooting the enemies with the zapper But all the Koopa things are now birds Yeah Or ducks specifically I always thought they kind of looked like ducks anyway Turtle ducks Turtle ducks yeah And then there's like Is the dog Is he Does he laugh at you every time you fall into an endless pit or something? I think it's like a glitchy nightmare of the mix of the two Like the dog laughs while you're shooting at the enemies The mushrooms coming down The weird things are flying that shouldn't be flying Sometimes Mario has the gun Yeah It's like a fever dream

It would actually be funny if Bowser like popped up on the screen You know In the same way the dog does Every time you die And just like giggles and points at you Like that would be very intimidating of Bowser to do something like that And the last The reality of the situation is Is nowhere near as fun It could be just a reskin of Gumshoe I know Mike you talked about that Yeah I mean Using the gun to make Mario jump Would really bring him back to his jump man roots Jump man jump As you say as you shoot at the screen

I love saying that Dance monkey dance Do you ever shout the commands of the things you're doing When you play video games? Mostly I don't think so Unless I'm playing Hey You Pikachu For Nintendo 64

Only when I've been trying to do it the normal way By just pressing the button And it won't happen correctly So it's more like an angry thing You know It's just to express anger Yeah I definitely know that When it's like When you're like I hit A Even though like deep down You kind of know like Well I probably hit it too late But you're like telling everyone else in the room Like I hit it Yeah exactly Obviously the games weren't combined And Sean you kind of said that it's sad that they weren't But you know it's not sad Because they're two great games So can we just kind of go around And maybe Sean you start us off How do you feel about these two games Super Mario Brothers and Duck Hunt?

Well they pretty much defined the original experience of owning an NES And I don't think that that has changed too much I mean they are still two of the most popular games in video games So they're classics And I think that you know It's a pretty good way to cheaply get people into it That haven't adopted the system yet In 88 To just put together this compilation

They're Yeah they're a classic game What about you Joe? Well yeah Super Mario Brothers There's obviously like Had already set like a high floor For quality of these Super Mario games And it really just continues to get better from there So it's already like the entry level Into this great series That's getting better and better But married with I mean you all know how I feel about Duck Hunt I still absolutely love it I mean it's just so simple And so like Really I'm not even really sure how you would improve on the gameplay of it I mean they're just two Very

Simple but Satisfying games to play Like you said Sean At the time You were buying an NES Those are probably two of the games at the top of your list to buy So it makes sense as You know Just from like a selling games standpoint To bundle them together Yeah What about you Sam?

I see it as Nintendo kind of They're not rebranding But they're just regular branding themselves As the distributor of these two super successful games And they're saying this is what the NES is all about Yeah they're just reminding everybody Yeah I can see it from a marketing perspective obviously But Yeah I mean What everyone talked about They're both great games for Very different reasons But they have this Such They have this essence of Nintendo In them And Nintendo realizes that And they're trying to show everyone else that

Yeah I think I think You know Because Super Mario Brothers 2 Just came out And Super Mario Brothers Is different enough From Super Mario Brothers 2 That This is like Totally fine To have both of those games together It's not like Super Mario Brothers 2 Was such an improvement Over Super Mario Brothers 1 That I'd never want to go backwards Like They're two separate games But one thing that's interesting here is Playing Duck Hunt again now Really points out the I don't know The novelty Of Duck Hunt

It doesn't really seem to be part of that original NES vision anymore You know There was a time Where The NES was pitched as like An entertainment center It It had the The zapper And eventually the power pad And Also a controller With two ports And like The family was always gathering around Now it's In 88 It's kind of obvious That the NES is pretty much Just for video games Really reminds me of like When the Wii First took off You know It started with like Wii Sports And Grandma bowling And these golf games

And you know Cooking Mama And then like As the years went on We got like The occasional Wii Fit Or Wii Music But Those were just like Oddities And video games like Super Mario Galaxy Were the norm Yeah You can kind of see That All of the The gimmicks Have sort of Faded away And they Just like In every Generation Of a system Like you know After a couple months They stopped making Kinect games Or iToy games Or whatever It was just When it's first party Like with Nintendo They're They're trying to

Expand The feature set By themselves And then like With these older situations Like the Kinect It's sort of like A licensing mandate Like you have to Make sure that it Uses these features For it to work But yeah Over time Everything just sort of Goes back to the mean Of video games As we know them So is this like The ultimate deal In video gaming I mean certainly For the time Right But even Even nowadays If you were told You could get an NES With a Zapper And Super Mario Bros.

And Duck Hunt On one cart I feel like Most video gamers Would take you up On that offer Because it depends On the price How much did it cost Mike Well you know I don't have Like inflation adjusted But I'm pretty sure Back then They were charging 200 So that's Probably pretty expensive When you adjust For inflation Yeah I would say so I mean unless I don't know The comparison Of what the launch Price was But I'm sure It was a great deal You bring up A good point though Sean Maybe this isn't The ultimate deal But the ultimate value

Yes It's such value I can't wait To pitch this I think it also Probably It also probably Kind of captures Some parents That maybe aren't As aware of Like the other games That their kids Are into But like Everyone's aware Of Super Mario Bros. And probably Duck Hunt And if you're not Aware of Duck Hunt You can kind of Just look at it And be like Oh that's what it is You shoot at the screen So it's like You know You don't have to Wonder like Was it You know Was it pro wrestling That they wanted Or was it You don't have to Like wonder Like which version Of all the different You know Hundreds of games Or over a hundred games That are out at this point Your kid wants You just know Like well these are These are games That everyone knows about

That's a good point though Joe Because there's There's the You know This is all being Launched by Nintendo of America This idea of Repackaging The NES I don't know If this one Was the action set Or not But just this branding Of the Super Mario Bros. Duck Hunt Cartridge in one And there You know Maybe Instead of Duck Hunt This might have Made more sense To a western audience To have something Like Wild Gunman I guess I mean I feel like Even here though Like Duck Hunt Was I mean The fact that I never heard Of Wild Gunman Before

Before we reviewed it Like I think that says That even western audiences Preferred Duck Hunt Yeah I think And they're going into this With that information Like this was so many years ago now Yeah And I think that Duck Hunt Just comparing Duck Hunt To Wild Gunman And Hogan's Alley All three I think Are good games But I think Duck Hunt Is literally just The most accessible To the most I mean They're all accessible But Duck Hunt Is literally Just shoot the targets So it's just like The easiest one To get your head around Yeah I mean There's a world Where they paired The Urban Champion And Gumshoe Together As like their You know That was their Double pack For the action pack Oh man Everybody has Goatees in that world

If it is The ultimate deal Though you can't Forget about Like games Like 52 and 1 On the NES Those bootleg carts That you see at Like shopping malls So I mean There is a better deal Than Super Mario Brothers Duck Hunt Theoretically Yeah but I feel like You kind of have to be In the know For those sort of things Like parents aren't Going out and buying

The 50 and 1 games Unless like They really did A bunch of research For it You don't know My parents And they suck though Too most of those games Yeah But I always saw like You know 5,001 Or something like that At like one of those Kiosks at the mall And you just You know Even as a kid You're kind of aware You're like Well what am I going to do With 5,000 games Like what What are the 5,000 games What am I going to do With 2,000 versions

Of Solitaire Yeah We don't know Well you know You guys have had some time To reflect on these games We've talked about Super Mario Brothers In almost every single episode But hey We're going to talk about it again And Duck Hunt It's been a moment So does anyone have Don't tell me how good The games are Does anyone have Like newfound criticisms On either of these games Not really

The game is What it always has been It's a simple enough concept That like And we haven't played Too many games like it Since the early days Because The Zapper Has sort of fallen off In popularity So I think it stands As it was Same pros Same cons Yeah I think as far as Duck Hunt It's just kind of like

Frozen in time It's like That's just A result of its simplicity I'm not sure if you asked About Mario also But as far as like I mean I think I could I could probably Find criticisms To Mario Just based on My knowledge Of future Mario games And how they improved But that almost seems A little unfair Like you know When I think of Super Mario Brothers 3 I can think like Well yeah it probably Would be nice If you could go backwards In Super Mario Brothers The original But you know Little things like that But It would be nice To be able to like Throw the hat And jump on the hat Yeah And where's Birdo You didn't get to Birdo

No no no He's teasing you No I'm also I'm also Yeah Oh wow Who played who In that situation Yeah shit I don't know You know The funny thing is Is I don't even know If Nintendo knows Of Birdo anymore Yeah they don't Why wouldn't they Well like What's the last thing Birdo's been in Smash Really Yeah As an assist trophy

I think so But also As a stage hazard Oh that's right In the Super Mario Brothers 2 like stage right Yes Yeah okay Alright so they Are aware of Birdo But maybe they're like They're not like You know it's like Waluigi They're not like Actively participating In the fanbase's Desire for more content Man that makes me so mad That what they did To my boy Well until Waluigi Becomes like The main villain Of the Super Mario Brothers Movie coming out In 2022 Or 2023

Movie We've been talking about Super Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt and, you know, it feels weird to just go right to the Essential Games list here and what even is the Essential Games list in an episode like this. So I told, I mean, this is a surprise to our audience maybe, but I told the guys to go ahead and play Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan. I mean, we just played Super Mario Bros. 2 USA so I figured this is closer to Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Bros. Duck Hunt is the game of the week. So what do you guys say we talk a little bit about Super Mario Bros. 2 for real? Let's do it. Yeah, I'm okay with that.

I'm more enthusiastic about it, but Sean's okay with it. Well, that's good because, you know, there's only, thankfully, there's only like some small game design differences that, you know, I think we should talk about, but this isn't like a whole in-depth thing that we need to do. You know, there is no two-player mode in this game. You just choose between Mario and Luigi. And I thought that that's kind of interesting because Super Mario Bros. not having a two-player mode was like, I never really cared about the two-player mode anyway since you just split them up. But this actually has like Mario

like retain most of his abilities from Super Mario Bros. but now Luigi gets the ability to jump higher than Mario can. And this decision was made before Super Mario Bros. USA came out. Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan came first. So it's almost like this is the first instance of Luigi having a high jump.

Wow. And I just, I genuinely didn't even think twice. When it boots up and it gets to the title screen and just says Mario game and Luigi game, I didn't even think of the implications of that. But like, I would have just thought that you just played as green Mario. I really didn't know that there was a gameplay difference between them. Is there an advantage to being Mario? So, Luigi does have a downside and that is that he cannot stop his momentum as quickly as Mario.

So if you are running as Luigi, you kind of, you know, like you can't just be speed running through because it's harder to stop. And so a lot of times you'll just run into the pit when you thought you might have like hit the jump button or stopped. So it almost feels, because I, like Sean, I also didn't know that there was a difference. I just played as Mario. But it almost seems like then you would play as Luigi once you're really good at the game and you want to jump higher and move faster and kind of get through the level quicker. But like, if you're just starting out, you play it safe and play as Mario?

I don't know. To me, that seems to be the case. Like, Luigi is who you'd use to speed run. Yeah, he feels almost like an expert player's mode, you know, because I did try Luigi out and to be honest, you would think in a game like Super Mario Brothers, who cares if you can jump higher? But that does prove pretty useful given the new way that they design levels in this game, which we'll get into in a minute. But the trade-off and the skidding taking longer and such made this really difficult for someone who plays Super Mario Brothers like I do,

where they're always holding down the run button and then using, like, the other side of their thumb to jump. Made it really hard to play this game successfully because chances are you're just gonna keep knocking into enemies and losing any power-ups or your lives that you have. Yeah, definitely the terrain is, like, more dangerous in this game than in the original. Yeah, there's just an abundance of hidden blocks, an abundance of enemies,

the platforms in between, like, the gaps are smaller. Sometimes they're, like, very precise where it's just, you know, an area big enough for Mario or Luigi. so there's just, like, more traps and deaths in general. And I don't know, like, is that, is that how you would improve a game by making it harder? Well, I mean, I feel like I'm, you may have described it like this in a prior episode where we just sort of tangentially talked about this version of the game, but it kind of plays like a ROM hack. Like, it doesn't feel like there's any friendliness in the design of this game. It's really just, like, the,

the expert mode of Super Mario Brothers because it really is a frustrating experience at some points in this game. Yeah, I agree with that totally. I was going to say it almost plays like a Mario Maker thing, but I like the ROM hack analogy even better. And not even just on a gameplay level, but even in some cases on, like, a design decision level. Like, the biggest one that stands out to me is, like, the squids that were exclusively underwater because they're squids in the other games are just, like, floating around in the air. Like, it just feels like someone was like, oh, I'll just put the squids with those physics here in midair.

Like, it felt, they definitely still have, like, a lot of attention to how they're designing the level to make it play like a good level, but it seems like they just stopped caring about, like, context in some cases and they're just like, ah, just throw things wherever it makes it hard. Like, don't make it make too much sense. Yeah, I guess, like, the game, it sort of treats you more like an adult in the way that it's not hand-holding you, but in some ways it can be really ambiguous and, like, the three most, uh, like, illustrative parts of this game that I played

are one, yeah, that, um, the squids being in midair, uh, which seems kind of cheap to me, uh, there was a part where there was like a, in, an un-jumpable chasm that you had to just search for a hidden block to be able to get, to get around. World 2-2, Sean. Um, and then 3-4, which is just messing with you and you can just keep running to the right and it's just gonna keep looping unless you take a specific path. But to be fair, that was in the original Super Mario and that was also one thing I didn't care for then.

Was that in the first? Yeah. It was in the 8-4, yeah. Yeah. I hated that. Well, I didn't like that. Yeah, that's where I stopped playing in this one, actually. Yeah, that's kind of where I stopped playing here. The game in general, though, feels like Nintendo's just angry that people were good at Super Mario Brothers because,

you know what's really strange is when you get to World 1-2 and, of course, by now, everybody knows about the warp zones, so you go to the warp zone and there's like a few treacherous pipes with piranha plants and then you do eventually get to the real warp zone and it takes you just to the next one, World 2. There's no choice between 2, 3, and 4. You just get one and that's actually true for all the warp zones in the game. There's only ever one warp zone. However, in some of those warp zones, they will send you back to the very beginning of the game. Yep. I came across that.

That's just like, it is, they're just like, they're screwing with us. Yeah. They're just messing with us at this point. You were skillful enough to get up here and now here's your punishment. Yeah, it's like you see the thing that's like, oh, I bet there's a secret up there. You see whatever clue there is and then they punish you for exploring that way. Even early on, I think it's World 1-2, there's an obstacle where you can be Super Mario,

so you're bigger, and you might have defeated all the enemies on the screen, but the blocks aren't, like, they're too low, so you won't be able to, like, run underneath them or anything, but also there's no enemies on the screen to make yourself small Mario and fit under it. So you have to kind of figure out on your own that you need, like, a running start and then press down and kind of, like, glitch through

the underground part of the cave. And I don't know, like, that, it is a, it's a super player move, like, people who are good at the game probably know that exists, but I think now it's, yeah, now it's, like, an actual mechanic that you have to use because it's, it kind of pops up in a lot of spots, especially if you're looking for, like, secret blocks, um, which are usually hidden under those columns of, uh, breakable, uh, like, when you're in the underground levels, like, those break blocks,

um, like, it's, it's a move that you have to do pretty often if you want to do it that way. And so maybe it's a good idea that they put it early on just so that it's something you learn, you either learn or you never learn, and you're just like, what the heck, like, I suck at this game or I need to be small Mario, but maybe it was a good thing if they were planning on making that, like, a core mechanic of the game. I just, I don't know, something, something's wrong about the fact that the

major improvements of Super Mario Bros. 2 are focused around making it harder for you. There's, there's the new poison mushroom, that when you touch one, it either automatically kills you or makes you smaller. There's, uh, and that's likely the first thing you're going to come across. Like, I, you're going to probably miss the first, like, real mushroom in 1-1, like, like I did at least. Um, and then you, like, the first obvious pickup is a mushroom that doesn't look quite right, and then you pick it up and you die, because you didn't get that big mushroom. So that, they're just sort of telegraphing to you that, like, this isn't going to be friendly. Yeah. Well, there's even a point where there's a, there's like a platform of,

you know, of, of blocks, of coin blocks that you're underneath, and it's long enough that you, you move the screen far enough that you can't go back out from under it, and right in the middle is a fire flower. I guess it, I guess it is dependent on if you're small, it would still be helpful, but, um,

but right in the middle there's a fire flower, but in order to get to it, you have to go all the way to the right to get out from under the block, and you have to go out to the point where it's off the screen. It's literally just something that's, it just shows you it's there and it's possible, impossible to get. Uh, granted, now that I'm explaining it, I do realize that if you're small, I forgot, you would still get a mushroom out of that, so I guess it's not completely useless.

Did any of you get to the, uh, the strong wind, uh, levels where, like, the, the leaves are blowing and Mario, it's like there's resistance against him moving forward? If it was after 3-4 that I didn't

I saw some footage of it and I actually thought that was the first thing that I thought, like, oh, this looks like a, something that makes it harder in more of a gameplay improvement way rather than like a, just annoying, like, deliberately, like, frustrating way. Yeah, something like that is, is a really cool addition to the game because that's actually changing, like,

how you, how you tackle a stage, like, you need to always be moving forward or else, it's almost like a reverse auto-scroller. Like, you need to always be moving forward, otherwise it's gonna push you back. Right, right, yeah, I would like to see more of that, you know, because they, you know, adding more little, like, physics mechanics that are, I don't know, a little more variety than what we saw in the first game.

They play with physics a little bit though because there's also that super spring, which just, like, you have no idea where you are on screen once you jump on it. I just kind of, like, I saw it happen and I'm like, is this, like, is this supposed to happen? Like, is this game haunted? Like, I didn't know what was happening. Well, when I first did it, I had the star and I thought, like, oh, is that a thing in the original Mario that if you have the star and go off a spring, you just fly, like, into the heavens?

No, I guess all those springs do that. And I think that spring one is actually the first example, Joe, that we were talking about with the warp zones where you'll use the spring and you'll go so high that you fly over the first goal post and all of a sudden you wind up in the warp zone area that sends you back to the beginning of the game. Is that right? Is that the one you remember? Yes. Yeah, that's right. I forgot about it. I just said it's so funny. It's like, oh, you missed the goal post, go back to the beginning of the game. Yeah, because it's so enticing. It's like, look, you can get past the goal post, like, and I'm like, oh, what secrets are over here? And then it's like, don't explore. Yeah.

So since none of us beat this game, I'll be honest and just say, like, I had a good time playing it, but I knew there was no way I was going to beat it. I think there's some things you guys need to know about the length of Super Mario Bros. 2. Okay. Japan. So after you beat Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan without using anything, any warp zones, you go to World 9-1, the fantasy world. Oh. Is that legal?

I didn't think you could count above 8. So there's an extra world, World 9, and it tells you pretty much, like, there's a new prompt on the screen that you're only going to get one life. You only have one life, regardless of how many lives you ended World 8-4 with. You only have one life to get through all of World 9-1, 9-2, 9-3, and 9-4. Do you not save the princess in World 8? You do, but now you're in like this fantasy world. Gotcha. Where it's just like, do it again, one more time. Okay, man, I'm watching it now, and it actually does give you a quick, some quick info,

which, it's interesting, you don't really, you don't really see that very often with Mario. Yeah, what does it say? Do you know what it says? It says, we present fantasy world, let's try 9 world with one game. Okay, I like how they're calling it game instead of life. Yeah. Maybe they

hadn't adopted the lives term yet in game terminology, but that's interesting. Hmm. However, it doesn't end there, guys. It doesn't end at World 9. Oh, dear. Should you be really good at Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan and are looking for the ultimate challenge, you need to, without resetting or shutting off the console, you need to beat Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan 8 times in a row. And every single time you beat the game, it adds a star to the main menu logo where it says Super Mario Brothers. Once you see 8 stars, you'll be able to unlock worlds A through world D. What?

Oh my god. So that's another 16 levels. Do you have to keep the console on? Sorry, I heard two questions there. Do you have to keep the console on for this whole time? It does not save. Yeah, right. So who has that much time or electricity bills? It's so much worse than something like Ghosts and Goblins, too, because Ghosts and Goblins is like you're just playing the game again for the most part, where this is like there is content locked behind you beating the game eight times in a row. There's like tons of content that you'll never see unless you're willing to commit that time. It sounds like

one of those April Fool's jokes that a gaming magazine would put out because it doesn't sound feasible. I'm actually watching a world A through D warpless speedrun right now. These levels don't look that crazy, but the fact that they're locked behind this ridiculous feat is amazing. I don't know. Yeah, you're right though. It sounds like playground talk. Do you know if you beat the game eight times there'll be 16 more levels? Exactly.

This is where Goku and Smash started because things like this actually happened. However, I have to mention, because I'm sure somebody who's listening knows, I was incorrect Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan was for the Famicom disc system, so it can write to the disc every time you beat the game, but it doesn't let you save in the middle of your game, so you do need to beat it completely eight times. Which you could do over the course of owning a game for a while. Especially after you beat a game once, you have a better shot of beating it ever again. There's no game that people beat that they can't beat again. Yeah, and this is obviously a lot harder than the original Super Mario Brothers, but the way people were with the original Super Mario Brothers,

people beat that in a sitting all the time. Well, I haven't. Well, neither have I, but I know people have. You guys have never beat the original Super Mario Brothers? I've beaten it, but not like speed ran it, like I'm talking about. I've never beaten it. I'm terrible at these platformers. I play them and enjoy them, but I need the ease that comes with the later generations. I've beat a lot of PlayStation games. I've barely beaten any NES games.

Honesty is good here, Sean. Yeah. Sean, me too. I've never beaten Super Mario Brothers. Good to know I'm not alone. So the last thing about the Worlds A through D is I just had to find out. I was like, okay, so what could World D4 even look like? How challenging could it be? And other than a series of very strange design decisions, the most interesting thing about World D4 is that there's a fake Bowser. He actually has a slightly different sprite, and the fake Bowser shows up first, and you run past him, and you think you're in the clear, and then the real Bowser Bowser is behind a

small little opening that he can clearly shoot fireballs under, and then there's also in that small opening there's a fire wheel attached to it that rotates around. So the moment of precise, the precision that it requires to get under Bowser, you have to wait for him to jump, you have to wait for the fire wheel to be in the right place, you most likely have to be small Mario, like there's no, you have to slide as well to be big Mario,

it's just there's so many things working against you, it feels like it doesn't want you to beat the game. Oh yeah, I kind of get that. Okay, so I'm watching in this run right now, he ran past fake Bowser. Who's like a goofy character, just like a fake Bowser, who knew? I couldn't even tell the difference in the sprite there. He's like bluer or something? Yeah, this is a pan. Yeah, he's bluer, yes. Wow, yeah, he is bluer.

Fun, not fun, not fun at all actually. And I think there's like a, there's a nice message though for beating that one, but, you know, it does kind of feel a little strange that all of this is hidden behind like beating a game eight times, but I guess

that's the mystery of these, of these older games, you know, it was like he said, she said kind of thing. Yeah, it's strange, but it is definitely really cool. Like, I would have, I would have been fascinated by it when I was a kid. Now a lot of the like wonder is taken out of it by the fact that we can just look it up and see what it all is. It's like, oh, it's just more levels. But like, I would have been fascinated by what could come next. Let me just tell you what it says when you beat the game like this. Please. Peace is paved with kingdom saved.

Hurrah to Mario, our only hero. This ends your trip of a long friendship. 100,000 points added. Oh, thank God. I really needed those points here at the end of the game. It had like a nice structure going for it, and then it's just like 100,000 points to Gryffindor. 100,000 points for each player left. Super Mario!

that's All right, so you want some development info on Super Mario Bros. 2? Let's go. All right, so here's a quote from Howard Phillips. You'll remember him as the guy who played every NES game for Nintendo of America and was in, like, the Howard and Nestor comics. We talk about him all the time, so I'm not going to say anything else. He says, As I continued to play, I found that Super Mario Bros. 2 asked me again and again to take a leap of faith and that each of those leaps resulted in my immediate death. This was not a fun game to play. It was punishment. Undeserved punishment. I put down my controller astonished that Mr. Miyamoto had chosen to design such a painful game.

I love it. And many people believe that's why Super Mario Bros. 2 never came. And instead, they requested a separate Super Mario Bros. 2 that, you know, we covered a few episodes back. America isn't ready for that kind of sadism. Yeah. I mean, it does seem like this game is just not for, like, the masses. This is for people who are, like, really, really hardcore original Mario players that really want a challenge.

Yeah, you have, like, two different viewpoints here. On one side, Miyamoto is quoted as saying that, like, they just had, like, all these additional ideas that they wanted to use in Super Mario Bros. that they just didn't have time to implement for the release. So then they just made Super Mario Bros. 2, which they didn't quite see as, like, a totally new game. Just taking all the ideas that they couldn't put into Super Mario Bros. 1, just put it in the next game. And brand it out and get that out there.

And then you have Tezuka saying that he didn't like that, you know, the Japanese players had mastered the original game. And so he felt like they needed a more challenging sequel. Like, that the Mario brand wasn't going to succeed if everybody was able to beat these games all the time. Oh, okay. I thought, again, I thought he was just, like, trying to put them in their place. He kind of did. He said, you mastered the original game. How about pure pain, according to Howard Phillips?

And as far as sequels and spinoffs go, this came out for both Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario Bros. Deluxe. All-Stars on Super Nintendo, Deluxe on the Game Boy. In both of those, you can save whenever you want. So that definitely makes it a little less challenging.

However, you can't really, like, play it in Super Mario Bros. Deluxe. You need to get 300,000 points in Super Mario Bros. Deluxe to unlock Super Mario Bros. for Super Players. They renamed it? They renamed it. They didn't want to call it Super Mario Bros. 2 because, well, there was a game in America called Super Mario Bros. 2. So they called it Super Mario Bros. for Super Players. And to be honest, I agree with that title.

I mean, I was always fond of it, like, the lost levels, just because I had All-Stars. And I liked that it was just sort of this weird, like, artifact of something that I had never heard about before. And, like, even the box shape was different in the menu when you chose your game. When you chose your game. So, I prefer lost levels. You know, there's also this game called Versus Super Mario Bros. And it is different. So we may very well have to play that sometime. Yeah, during the next bundle. Yeah, during Super Mario Bros. 2 and Duck Hunt 2.

You're waiting for Duck Hunt 2. I'm waiting. It's coming soon. I'm glad you brought up Super Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt, though, Joe, because we have a loose end. We have to go to the Essential Games list where we will not be voting on Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan. But instead, we'll be voting on Super Mario Bros. slash Duck Hunt. This is the Essential Games list.

Okay, Sam. What do you got? What's your vote? And before you vote too confidently, I want to throw in an additional piece of the Essential Games list here. I'd also just, I'd like to hear, you know, your vote on if Super Mario Bros. 2, which is ineligible. But let's pretend like it was. Would you put it in the Essential Games list? Hmm. Should I answer that first? You give them to me in any order. Surprise me. Hmm.

It's 10.34 in the morning. I'm taking a shower and I'm listening to the NostalgiaCast episode. The new one that just came out today. Gotcha. And you're about to tell me your vote. Well, I think that, I don't know, but I think that for Super Mario Bros. 2 Japan, part of me wants to throw it on the Essential Games list. Because it gives you so much extra stuff at the end of it. And it is really hard. And it's like a, you know, it's like Ocarina of Time Master Quest sort of vibes. Like, you know, Lost Levels, that whole deal. But it's, but it also seems, like you guys said, like more like a fan game. That it's like not really, it's like a little bit less real than what a Super Mario Bros. game would be.

Um, so I'm not going to put it on the Essential Games list for that reason. I think it's really interesting, but I think that if you want a Super Mario Bros. experience, that this one is very, it's like Super Mario Bros. 1, but just with other stuff in it that makes it fun sometimes, but sometimes less enjoyable. But I think it does not deserve a spot. All right. And how about Super Mario Bros. Duck Hunt? Super Mario Bros. Duck Hunt? Well, I mean, if we add it, then do we add, do we get rid of Super Mario Bros. and Duck Hunt? Or are we going to have all of them on there?

I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that it really doesn't matter. Right. The games are already on the Essential Games list. So this is just you getting a chance to put them on it again. Right. This is just me talking to myself in circles. Yeah, it's not like they actually get added twice. Right. Then, I don't know. I would say yes, because for the people who were kind of late to the NES game,

this is probably a really great incentive to get it. And it's also like just having both of them be so accessible is, I don't know. I think it's really cool that they're able to cram both those games. Cram. They're probably like four kilobytes or something. But, you know, cram those games onto one cartridge. And also something I didn't say. Yeah. I'm a little bit nostalgic. Not nostalgic. I already messed it up.

Nostalgic for this one because this is actually the first NES game I've ever played. was the combo game, Duck Hunt and Super Mario Brothers. That's the game we're playing. Yeah. So, I enjoyed being able to switch back and forth without having to, you know, go over to the NES and move things around. And I don't know. I think it provides a slightly different experience. And it's more optimized than playing the game separately. Cool. Well said. And Joe, how about you? All right. I'll start with Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan as well, just because it's the one that I have a better idea of how to answer.

So, I do think there's a weird, like, element to this because if you really think about it logically and take out what we know about video game sequels, it makes a lot of sense that the sequel to Super Mario Brothers 1 is just the same thing, but it's just gotten harder. Just like, you know, each level got harder in Super Mario Brothers 1. Now you continue. It gets harder and harder from there. I don't think that that ends up being necessarily a good video game sequel just because, A, because it's not what we're used to, and B, because I think we want to have that progression again. We want to start from scratch again and progress for the most part.

There's the element of there being so much, of it feeling like a fan-made game or a ROM hack that does make it feel a little less accessible to the masses, I guess. And it just feels like something that's essential if you're, it's an essential game for a Mario fanatic who really wants to just play more Mario. I don't think it's essential for everyone. It's hard for me to put it there, and I think there are too many things that are just deliberately

frustrating or, like, I do think it's kind of poor game design to entice you to go, to spend a whole earlier game enticing you to kind of explore and find secrets, and then kind of spend this game punishing you for that in some ways, and doing things that just like, oh, you just have to know that this hidden block is here to progress, and things like that. Um, I think, I think hurt it and keep it off the essential games list for me. Um, as far as Super Mario Duck Hunt, I mean, I think that Super Mario and Duck Hunt both

separately still 100% belong in the essential games list, and like, I don't really feel like I have a horse in the race if the combo goes on there. Like, I think if you want them both, like, that's a great thing to have on there. Kind of have a cop-out answer here. I think it just, yeah, it's kind of arbitrary whether or not the combo goes on there. I'd say, yeah, let's put it on there. You don't have to switch cartridges.

That's really the only upside. Okay, I'm gonna go next. I'm gonna go next. Uh, I was under the impression that this vote was purely ceremonial, and it was just going to put this off the essential games list, and I have too much, I feel too much for the sanctity of the essential games list to put this cart on there, uh, just because it has two essential games on it. It's, no. It's not the, it's not the game. Well, to be clear, I think you're right. I don't think this is actually going on the essential games list.

Well, there's two votes now. I think we're all on the same page here. There's two votes. Yeah, but I thought that this was just like you said, uh, this is a, you know, just an exercise. Joe, Joe, Joe, you can't talk back now. I forgot. It's what you did. I've given up my, uh, my... You've done what you've done. So, I'm, I'm throwing my weight behind keeping it off.

Uh, so, yeah, no, essential for the, for the combo pack. Uh, as for Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan, um, I, like, I think that we have thankfully moved on on what a sequel is supposed to be, and even before this, uh, in, in North American, uh, view of things, like, we kind of saw what a sequel kind of should be, uh, which is a, an evolution of a game, um, an evolution of a property as opposed to an expansion pack. This is an expansion pack. I do not think it's essential, uh, especially, and if, if it's just for the hardcore, I think that by itself makes it unessential.

So, that, those are my, that's my figurative vote for that. All right. So, here's the deal. Super Mario Brothers slash Duck Hunt makes sense for every person who owns an NES. In fact, only really snooty video game collectors should buy them separately, like, to preserve the individualness of them. Like, anybody who's smart would just buy this cart for, like, 99 cents because it was made for millions of copies. Just buy this one, and now you have two great games, or you could pay, like, $8 for Super Mario Brothers and, I don't know, maybe $12 for Duck Hunt, and it's, it's, like, congratulations.

You own them both separately. Uh, if you got them with the boxes, it's, like, hundreds of dollars. So, hope you feel good there. Where, instead, most people are going to go the route of the Super Mario Brothers Duck Hunt cart, uh, combo cart.

However, I am not going to make my essential games list filthy and put a cartridge, you know, put a scan of a cartridge that has both of these games in half. I want them to be full. So, for that, I'm a snooty collector, and I'm going to keep Super Mario Brothers Duck Hunt off the essential games list. Hold on a second. I feel cheated here, because you said at the beginning of this that this would not really go on our essential games list. No, no, no. We were talking about, now I'm being, you know.

Well, Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan would not go on the essential games list. What's that? You were saying that Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan wouldn't go on the essential games list. No, I thought you were saying that these are both kind of just, uh, ceremonial votes, like, should they be considered essential?

I want the listeners to know every minute of nostalgia matters. There's never a moment where we shouldn't be listening. Uh, this is, this is 100% serious. Joe, I understand where you're coming from. Of course we wouldn't have put, like, four different, you know, like, because this is going to come up again. There's a Super Mario Brothers Duck Hunt world-class track meet, you know? Oh, good. I have another chance. I was, I thought that was unclear because I could have sworn that we were, we were actually voting for Super Mario v. Duck Hunt. Well, we, we were. I, I, I feel like we're in a confusing realm where I'm saying we are and we are not at the same time. But everybody gets what I'm saying, right? Like, everyone understands.

We're voting out of ceremony. No! No, I don't understand. No, no, no, it's fine. I'm just trying to be funny. And on the other side, just to wrap this thing up, you know, Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan is a less special version of Super Mario Brothers 1. If this game came first, Super Mario Brothers would not have been as big a hit. Still would have been revolutionary for its time. Probably would have still been, like, you know, the thesis of many future games. But it would have set a pretty bad design precedent for the industry if Super Mario Brothers 2 Japan was the only Super Mario Brothers.

And so I'm really glad that this is the expansion pack that Sean described it as because that is exactly what it is. And I'm fine with that, you know? That's, if you're a super player and you're looking for more Super Mario Brothers, heck, if you just like Super Mario Brothers and you're looking for more Super Mario Brothers, this isn't a bad game. It's just not really, like, it's not what I think of when I think of the Super Mario Brothers

core games. And so for that reason, it's staying off. Yeah. And we are going to be signing off. I have no idea what we're playing next week. Do any of you guys know? Oh, Super Team Games. I can't believe. So we should all, we should, you know, get our Super Teams together. And we'll face off in the next episode.

We'll be right back.