118 · LEE TREVINO'S FIGHTING GOLF

• Never before in a home format have so many options been available to a player of video golf.
• http://www.thegameisafootarcade.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Lee-Trevinos-Fighting-Golf-Game-Manual.pdf
• Introductions
• U.S National Video Game Team?
  • Setup by Walter Day in 1983 (that ref from King of Kong)
  • Toured the US beating people at video game arcades and apparently foreign embassies.
  • Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers were members
  • Apparently still active...
  • https://www.usnationalvideogameteam.com/members
• Overview
  • Remember Golf? We loved Golf
  • Lee Trevino’s Fighting Golf is NES Golf with more options and MUSIC
• Gameplay
  • Characters - Each controls differently
    • Pretty Amy
      • What’s up with the Panty shot?
    • Big Jumbo
    • Super Mex (Lee Trevino)
      • Trevino opted to be the second most powerful golfer with the second worst control?
    • Miracle Chosuke
  • 2 Courses
    • Japan (Water and boundaries) and USA (Bunkers and Super Roughs)
  • Notable differences
    • Autopicks your club and direction for you (not always the best)
    • You can now use D-Pad for hitting High and Low as well as backspin
      • Too many movements?
    • Practice mode!
  • Stroke Play or Nassau?
    • Stroke Play is solo where Nassau gives points to winner of each hole
      • Nassau Computer Difficulty
    • Press Rule on Nassau
  • Did they make Golf too complicated for casuals?
    • What’s the point of all of these mechanics if there is a little bit of randomness in your player character?
• Sequels and Spinoffs
  • Lee Carvallo’s Putting Challenge
    • Simpsons reference in Season 7 “Marge Be Not Proud”
  • Trevino LCD game Tiger Electronics
  • OTHER SNK golf games
    • Top Players Golf - 1990
    • Neo Turf Masters - 1996 (AES board will cost only US$15,000)
      • But wow, the sprite work, vibe and everything about it makes me want to play
      • LOL nvm you can play it on Switch for nothing
• EGL
• --== Section 8 - Club Yardage Chart ==--
• Amy Jumbo Chosuke Trevino
• D (1w) 245 275 255 265
• 3w 215 245 225 255
• 4w 200 230 210 220
• 1I 200 230 210 220
• 3I 180 210 190 200
• 4I 170 200 180 190
• 5I 160 190 170 180
• 6I 140 170 150 160
• 7I 130 160 140 150
• 8I 120 150 130 140
• 9I 105 135 115 125
• PW 95 125 105 115
• SW 85 115 95 105

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf! Never before in a home format have so many options been available to a player of video golf.

00:23 And welcome to NEStalgia! Chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. And guys, that quote that we read at the beginning of the episode is brought to you by the U.S. National Video Game Team of 1988. Is that like an Olympic team? Yeah, that's what it sounds like. I had a feeling that nobody would know who the U.S. National Video Game Team is, so I did some research because I had never heard of them either. And it was set up by Walter Day back in 1983. Do you guys know Walter Day? He's that guy who wears the referee shirt in King of Kong?

01:06 I mean, I must have seen him, but I don't recall. He's like the owner of Twin Galaxies 2 or something of that effect. And Twin Galaxies are the people that used to hold all the world records for the arcade games. Anyway, to make a long story short, Walter Day set up a team that involved like Billy Mitchell and Todd Rogers, two people that are now like banned from video game achievements for life because they both got caught cheating.

01:33 And they toured the U.S. in like a bus going around beating people at different video game arcades throughout America and then eventually went all the way to going to foreign embassies and beating international video game players as well. Okay, I like that. Like when you just say beating, it sounds like they went in a tour bus just beating crowds of people in arcades.

01:59 But now when you say embassies, now that I'm confused because like what foreign embassy would allow such a thing to occur? Did they actually care about video games back then on the international stage? And was this like, I mean, was this just like a thing that they did or were there other like teams that they were fighting against that were also trying to do this? Or were they just like challengers, let us know and we'll find you and fight you. Yeah. So were they just doing this on their own or were there other teams that they could go out and were they just like any challengers, let us know and we'll come fight you or were there rival factions? I don't think there were any rival factions.

02:37 But that's something I guess I should look up. You know, there's not a lot of information on how they did any of this. It does seem like they took it upon themselves to name themselves the US national video game team and then just showed up at random arcades around the United States and said, bet I could beat you in Pac-Man. And they played a guy who had memorized Pac-Man. So it's just a bunch of kids like making a club and and just doing doing things.

03:06 Kids would be the wrong word. You know, like 20s. Is this a legal organization? Apparently so. Apparently, yes. And they're even to this day, they're still active. You can look up their current members on their website, US national video game team dot com. Okay. It's actually a Zanga. But anyway, continue, Mike. Yeah. Anyway, remember golf on the NES? Oh, you mean one of your favorite games of all time, golf?

03:37 We all loved golf. Joe, didn't you love golf? I loved golf. I did love golf. Not as much as you, granted, but I did like golf. Golf. And now we have Lee Trevino's fighting golf, which is not a beat him up. And it's also not a it's not a fighter either. It is just golf. And then Lee Trevino is not in it. Well, he's in it. He's in it. Make no mistake about it. He's in it. Yeah. He's super mechs.

04:06 See, it's funny because I didn't know when I when I saw this game on the list, I had to do some digging just to understand why it's named the way it is. And like I learned that Lee Trevino was, you know, he was the equivalent of like a sort of like a Tiger Woods of the time.

04:27 And that can't just that doesn't stop me, though, from sort of fantasizing about this game as if it were something along the lines of like Sean Avery's 3D hockey. Like it just seems so like a pedestrian name to be attached to a game series. I don't know if this has another one, but I don't know what you guys thought. Well, did you did you find a reason that it's fighting golf? I don't know why it's called fighting golf. I thought maybe Lee Trevino had a temper. But that's just a guess. Yeah, because I was waiting for that. I was like, oh, it's gonna be cool. There's gonna be like a little twist where you where you have to go like on a mission and fight people or something.

05:07 But no, it's golf. Well, there is actually an explanation for for both things. I'll talk about both points. So first, for the fighting golf, that's actually just strictly a mistranslation by the localization team, where they just didn't understand the title of the Japanese game and included fighting thinking that like, oh, yeah, that's an actiony word. That'll make sense. I yeah, I kind of figured it was like maybe it was supposed to be like versus or something because there's two player in it or something. It was mistranslated to fighting. But I didn't know. Yeah. And then Sean, just to just to go back to your thing, because I think Sean Avery's 3D hockey is very funny.

05:45 It's true that like that would even be a thing that would go on to happen, at least in baseball games where like Nintendo got like Ken Griffey's license. And that was like incredible for the time. And so yeah, that's Ken Griffey though. Right. No, but that's what I'm saying. Like anybody else who wanted to make a baseball game had to use a different player. And so that's kind of like a real life example of like, why would I play Mike Piazza's Strike Zone when Ken Griffey Jr.'s Slugout is happening? So wait, Mike Piazza's Strike Zone is a game. It's a game on the N64 and it's awful.

06:18 Okay. Also, since we're talking about Lee Trevino's fighting golf and Lee Trevino in general here, why would Lee Trevino opt himself to be in a game where he's the second most powerful golfer and has the second worst control out of all of the golfers? I think it's... I feel like he probably had no idea what they were going to do to his likeness. I think that maybe he just wants to be seen as the all-rounder. And, you know, because the people that he's... The other characters in this game, if we want to go there, is a girl that is just defined by how pretty she is.

07:01 And she's more accurate. And there's another dude that is just strong and maybe he never even played golf before. Oh, you're talking about Big Jumbo? Big Jumbo. And I forgot who the other one is.

07:14 But I don't remember what... Miracle Chasuke. Yeah. So, I don't know. Maybe he just wanted to be seen as, like, the only true golfer on the roster. Right. And Lee Trevino is Supermex, the third option on the character screen, because that was his nickname, was Supermex. And I think that... Like, I'm sure there's a perfectly valid explanation for that, but the only reason I could find is that he was a Mexican-American golf player. So... Apparently, yeah. They just naturally called him that. I guess that is true. Like, even on the infallible Wikipedia page, they said that he was affectionately called Supermex.

07:53 But it's important to mention that there are characters here, because I think that's, like, a big differentiator right off the bat from, like, NES golf. In the case that, like, each of these characters, even if they are no-name people outside of Lee Trevino, they each control differently. You have pretty Amy, who has the least amount of power, but the best control.

08:12 And, yeah, it's weird that, like, her whole personality is, like, defined by her being pretty. But what's up with, like, the... What's up with the fact that if she hits, like, a great shot, you also get, like... You get to see her panties. Yeah, it's weird. Like, what's that about? It's very Japanese. Nice. And then you have Big Jumbo, who, as you can imagine, has the most power, but sucks at everything else. So you have to, like, work with that against you.

08:41 Supermex, like I said, he's just this... He's just an all-around average golfer, which just seems strange for Lee Trevino to want to attach his name to. No, it makes... It sounds better if you just say he's an all-around golfer. Oh, there you go. Got it. All-around golfer. Yeah. And Miracle Chasuke, who I'm sure I'm not saying that last name right, but his whole thing is that he can do the Miracle putt, which is, like, he has a better opportunity of, like, if you're using a, like, a sand wedge or a power wedge and you're not on the green, you have a better opportunity of hitting it into the hole than anybody else. So you're saying there's, like, RNG in this game?

09:22 I'm saying that there's a lot of RNG just off the bat based on those introductions. I mean, now you have to choose between, like, forget about understanding the controls of a golf game in two dimensions, right? Like, forget about those things for a second and understand that now, no matter who you pick, you're penalized in some way.

09:43 Maybe that's why it makes sense that Lee Trevino is the all-rounder because that's what, like, most people who are going to play are just going to probably feel more comfortable playing with him because it's like, well, he's pretty good at everything, even though he's not the best. And I also just disagree with the notion that these are, like, that your experience is lesser because there is, like, a variety of kinds of characters. I mean, I think it's just in how you frame it.

10:08 Like, yeah, I mean, I think unless it's just going to be a completely cosmetic difference between what character you choose, like, there should be pros and cons to choosing them. Yeah, I agree with that. I didn't, it didn't bother me that they had different attributes. Granted, I really mostly just played Supermax. Yeah, I just feel like golf is already kind of complicated on the NES. Like, there's a lot working against it. And the idea that, like, there's randomness to your player character only makes it harder to actually be any good at this game. Like, the only randomness that I really, that I can see in just the descriptions of these characters, though, is apparently that, that Miracle Chice K guy could get Miracle Putts.

10:56 Everything else is just, you see it reflected on their UI. Like, if you're, if you're playing as Lee Trevino, like, everything behaves in one way. But if you're playing as Amy, that little power slash accuracy gauge goes, goes a little slower. So, I, they're more like the tools afforded to you behave differently. And I don't really see the RNG in it. So, I'm not, I guess I'm not talking about RNG in the sense of, like, that the computer actually programs randomness.

11:31 What I'm saying is, is that there are accurate, there's measures of how hard each player can hit a ball. And so, obviously, like, Big Jumbo could hit something 275 yards where Pretty Amy can only hit a 225. But Pretty Amy has better control over the ball. And that matters about, like, how the ball lands, you know, versus, like, if you're Big Jumbo, even if you hit it right on the middle, there's going to be some kind of slice for the ball that's going to cause it to wane left or right on any given particular putt. Hmm. Okay. I didn't play as him, so maybe, maybe that is the case. But I thought it was just that there was a, it was more sensitive to your input, not so much that it would add randomness to your input.

12:13 Right. No, it adds that, but on top of that, too, it's like, you know, each thing has their own thing, too. Like, Miracle Chesuke, his putting is great, but it comes at the cost of control and power. And Pretty Amy is, you know, she has the least amount of power, but her putting isn't as good as Miracle Chesuke. So it's like, it's just, it's interesting that they gave these characters a thing. I guess I'm arguing that on an NES golf game, do we really need another layer of complications on top of the things that we've already experienced and the new additions that this game brings to it?

12:48 I see what you're saying, but I do think that, I do, yeah, I do think that after, after playing it for a little bit, like, I think it's overall a good thing, at least in my opinion, also to have, granted, if there's anything that's like actually like punishing about picking a character, that might not be the best. But I think the fact that it's like, just some characters have better attributes and better skills in one attribute than another character. I like that, too, because it adds a little bit of level of like strategy and choice to it.

14:03 Cool.

14:07 Yeah, I think that's a little bit more helpful than just always having to pick your own wedge or iron. Yeah, I actually very rarely ended up finding myself switching it once in a while I did. But for the most part, I just kind of trusted what the computer gave me. And usually, I mean, obviously, I don't know what would have happened if I switched it. But usually it felt like the computer gave me the right choice. Yeah, which I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I liked it because I'm not super familiar with golf clubs.

14:53 And, you know, I didn't have to like think about it or like remember which was which or, you know, which one would be good and which in which position. But I'm sure after a while it might get like a little bit too easy. I think this is the natural progression. Like I wouldn't say that they were trailblazers for doing this, but there's a reason that golf games to this day will will sort of do that for you.

15:16 And part of it is because a layperson doesn't know the difference between a nine iron and a five wood like I don't. So when I was just sort of trying like blindly looking at all of my clubs and deciding what to do in the originally as golf, like I just sort of had to like just guess what these things meant. And I appreciate that at least like guides you to where you should be and then you can adjust it from there.

15:46 Like there were some instances where I went from a nine iron to the actual like driver and just to just to get some extra oomph to it. But I think that this was the next logical step. Yeah, I think a nice compromise for me would have been if there was like that like an easy mode that selects your clubs for you, but still displays them. So you play that for a while, kind of learn the clubs and then like a regular or hard mode where it's like now.

16:13 Yeah. And it's not always the best, too, which is important, too, because I think it would stink if like it always chose the optimal thing for you, given a situation like it doesn't account for the wind or it doesn't account for like. Like, oh, there might be a lake hazard in the middle of this and now you might land in there instead if you don't change your club. Like I like that because if it just chose you the optimal thing based on computer metrics, you'd be barely playing the game. It would just always swing as hard as possible and aim for the middle.

16:43 I also think exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I also think that the ability to like to keep the clubs within the same amount that the NES golf game had wasn't a like hindrance for it because I'm pretty sure that's just the standard amount of clubs that anyone brings with them to a an 18 hole course. So that wasn't like that wasn't weird to me. And at the same time, like I don't even know if I needed all of those options. Like it's really nice for them to include everything from a one wood to a sand wedge, but I don't even know if I need all three iron to nine iron for me.

17:18 I think it's just I guess it would be sort of like a I don't even know what what an equivalent would be, but it's like in a baseball game, you could only do a fastball or something. I don't know. I think that exactly the different kinds of clubs are are very descriptive of the sport. So you need them, I think. Yeah, although it is. I do wonder like how much like those small increments actually do within like the hardware of the NES.

17:48 Like maybe they don't make too much of a difference, but they're just there for immersion. I'm not sure, but it just seems like how much can the NES be really differentiating? I think it's just I think it's just differences in in range.

18:01 And maybe how sensitive it is to changes in power. I don't know. That's just a guess. No, I think I think you're spot on there because it seems like for the most part, each club is and is regardless of player, because even if your max is 275 or your max is 245, it seems to go down in increments of like 30s and then 10s and then maybe even as low as 5s towards the end.

18:26 So it seems like it was nice of them to like not say like, oh, well, you really only need a one wood, a four wood, a one iron, a five iron and a nine iron. You know, like it's nice to include everything. And then the wedges are there for the special instances in which you've gotten yourself into trouble. Yeah. And there's more movement on the ball than ever, too, because you can now use your D pad to do like high and low hits and backspins. Did you guys try any of that stuff? I tried backspin a little bit, but it was tough because it's like it seems like it's a very precise timing.

18:59 I didn't really try too much else, though. I wasn't very good at it, so I don't think I ever actually pulled it off. But I appreciate that it at least has a little bit more realism in this game than in modern golf games where you have this magical ability to alter the course of your ball in mid flight. And like that's where you add your spin as well. The ball is in the air, which doesn't really make sense to me. I don't know if you guys have played more recent golf games, but it at least was was trying to simulate that aspect of the sport. The only person who was ever able to control their golf ball in midair was Michael Jordan in Space Jam.

19:38 Exactly. I will echo what Joe was saying there that, you know, it might just be too many movements to do a backspin. It's just a little complicated because you have to time it appropriately after your movement with the rest of the power gauges. So you have to like perform everything that you need to do. And then also think about like using the right or left D pad to put a little swerve on it right before you tee off. But you haven't, you know, you haven't, you've already hit A twice. So it's like A, A, left, A. And I just think that's like, for me, that's too much to think about in golf right now on this platform.

20:16 It's actually, that's where the fighting comes from. Yeah, it's a lot to think about within like one second. That's where the fighting comes from because it actually has the, yeah, they have to do combos to get the ball anywhere. But high and low work really well because those are just holding the upper down on your D pad, depending on if you want to hit the ball high or if you want to hit it low. And it only has one effect, which is just that if you hit the ball high, the wind accounts for more effect.

20:40 So if you want the wind to like, you know, screw up your ball a little more, if you, if it's going like 10, 10 miles per hour north and you want to make sure you carry your ball, you want to hit high. Whereas like, if you don't want to be affected by the wind, but don't care about shooting like very far, then you want to shoot low to make sure that you get the most accurate possible hit. So, I mean, those are great inclusions that were definitely not on NES golf. So that's cool. Indubitably. And while we're talking about the D pad, the left and right don't do anything while you're shooting, correct?

21:13 I don't know. It's only, I think that I'm pretty sure it's just up and down while you're shooting. Is that how you apply, is that how you apply like hook or is that just, you do hook via where you do that second A press?

21:26 Where you do that second A press. I thought hook was where that second A press, yeah. Yeah. So I was, I know this is like a, this is like such a tiny pet peeve, but I was like a little annoyed that I had to, every time I wanted to, you know, rotate my player at all. You have to press B to like activate the ability to rotate, even though the buttons you use to rotate are not doing anything beforehand. Like there was no need for that. So you have to press B to activate that ability, then press B to select club and then press B again to go back to swinging.

21:54 And I know that's like a tiny thing, but it got annoying to me after a while. I kept forgetting like, wait, am I, am I swinging now? Am I selecting my club? I feel like it should have just been B to select your club. And that's the only, you don't need to have like an alternative control scheme just so you could turn left or right. If you have these two buttons that are not doing anything otherwise.

22:12 Sure. I guess I agree with that. I didn't bother me as much, but if, if it can be, uh, if it can be achieved and simplified, then why not? Yeah. I feel like maybe it, or, or then if you're going to have that thing, which wouldn't be that big of a deal. If, if left and right, we're doing anything in the first control screen scheme. I hope I'm, I hope I'm saying this in a clear enough way that the listeners know what I'm talking about.

22:36 Uh, if you haven't played it, but I guess, but it's just, I guess we could, it's just a little weird that you have to go to like another page of controls. I guess like we could just very briefly like explain. So there, there are like, there are three modes that you're going to cycle through. Uh, the first is, uh, you have a little cursor that shows the direction you're facing.

22:57 Um, and you can adjust that with left and right. And also sort of extrapolate distance from that point by pressing up and down. And then if you press a or press B again, it'll, uh, move you to your club selection. If you press B again, it gets you to where you can actually take your swing. And that's just the power gauge. And the second press of that power gauge determines, uh, how much hook or push, I guess you have on the swing. So what, what, what Joe is trying to describe is, uh, like there's a little too much division in how all those things control. Does that same power gauge, uh, selection could also handle turning left or right. Is that pretty clear?

23:43 Yeah, exactly. Like it's like they, they could be in the same screen. You know, you shouldn't have to switch to a new control scheme because that just, it just adds like a weird layer of complication that kind of sort of immersion breaking a little bit.

23:58 Uh, I know that I'm like overly annoyed with this like tiny little thing, but I just felt like after a while, I was just like, why is it making me do this every time? Well, it's important to note too, that you start on the assumption that you're swinging. So every time that you do want to move, uh, even just the tiniest bit rotate in a particular direction, you need to press the B button at least three times to get through your entire rotation. You know? So, uh, it's, it'd be one thing if it asks you first, where do you want to face before that?

24:28 You know, cause that would be like one way to achieve it. So you only have to do one B press, but you're going to wind up doing the B button press three times before you're able to go back to your swinging. Right. And before I, I mean, I didn't read the manual right off the bat. I had to go back into it, but like at first I wasn't even sure how to turn because the, the D pad wasn't doing anything to make me turn, which then I just felt like, why doesn't it just let me turn now?

24:50 But, uh, so I had to go in and read the manual and realize that you can like switch to another control. Yeah. The only thing I can think of is that, you know, you were asking if the left and right D pad do anything. Um, and it, it only happens when you're in the middle of, uh, you know, applying your swing where you can apply the, the, the backspin, but you know, that doesn't mean that you couldn't use the left and right beforehand, but maybe it was locking it off just this way. It was always triggered for backspin or something like that, that you couldn't apply two different sets of controls for, for the same, uh, recognition. Maybe. Yeah.

25:25 And then the last notable addition that I wanted to talk about is a practice mode. You know, this was something that we all had a gripe about in NES golf because there was no way to practice the later holes. You just had to remember them and be like, oh yeah, I'm okay at this one. If you assume that you could get all the way to the 17th hole again in NES golf. So in this one, you're able to practice a particular hole that's bugging you. And you can also practice better with all the characters too, to better understand how they work. And so I think this just makes so much sense. And it feels weird that we praising a practice mode here, but we don't have a lot of games that let you practice much of anything.

26:01 Yeah. And I think it was needed a lot more here because like you said, there are these four different characters that you want to be able to play around with and see who you're good with and who you, you know, whose control schemes you like. One thing I wanted to mention was in the, I guess the campaign mode, if you, for lack of a better word, I guess. Um, I liked the additions of holes that had little, uh, mini objectives on them, like the farthest drive and closest in, um, and they would, you would get like, you'd get a trophy for that even while you're just going through a normal nine holes. Uh, so I guess little tidbits like that were also a good improvement. I thought added some flavor to it.

26:53 Yeah. I mean, there's gotta be something there. I don't watch golf if it's not clear there, but there's gotta be something there because that's even a mechanic in Mario golf on the N64 where certain courses, certain holes would just be like, who's got the longest drive. And then you would get a trophy for that too. So that must be like a thing in golf. I don't actually know. I liked, I liked that inclusion.

27:15 Is that what, what Nassau is? That's the Nassau. Yes. I got it. It's like the Nassau classic or something. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, isn't that what that is? I know that's like betting on three different things, but is that like actually betting on specific?

27:30 Isn't that what that is? Isn't that like. Yeah. It's a wager. It's a wager in golf. Yeah. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Yeah. I don't really know too much more about it, but I thought, I think it's like you bet on like the first half of the game and you bet on the first nine holes in the back nine and then like something else. Interesting. Yeah. I just took it as here's, you're going to go and play the whole course versus a computer or somebody else. I didn't know. It's money, but in this game, obviously there's no money.

27:57 So it's just wagered on the best score of each of the front nine back nine for the total of 18 holes. So it's the same thing as like what I think NES golf called match play, where you just basically get you get appropriate points based on a particular hole, not in terms of strokes. So there's no difference if one guy gets like negative seven and the other guy, you know, has plus three because it only counts like who won the most amount of holes. It's an individual type thing. And I think that's really cool. I think that's a neat way to get around being bad at particular holes. Yeah, that makes sense.

28:39 One thing I wanted to talk about was I appreciated the improved graphics in this game. Not that they are anything like special, but instead of just the bare bones, like grass and sand and water of NES golf, like there's actually some almost 3D elements in one of the window panes in this where like the tree, like you see trees in the distance and the trees that you actually interact with on the course. Because the character models are a bit more detailed and they're not just weirdly realistically shaped Mario's.

29:23 So I thought that was also something that you could applaud. Yeah, I thought I thought it definitely looked like, you know, there was like some shading or so, whatever you want to call it. It wasn't just solid colors.

29:35 But there was one thing about actually like the improved look that I actually think hurt it a little bit unless I misinterpreted it. But in NES golf, when you're on the green, there were like just little arrows that I kind of look like they're supposed to be part of the aesthetic. But they also serve to point as to like which way the slope is like which way your ball will roll. Well, that still exists on the green. It looks like, yeah, there's something there, but it's like this. It's like not always air. They're like weird designs.

30:04 I can't even tell sometimes which way it's trying to point. Oh, I guess I had a more I took to it a bit more naturally because they do sort of they end up looking like arrows in some instances. And sometimes they're in some instances. Yeah. But then other instances, they're just not like and sometimes I'm like, OK, like this one line is like out further than the two next to it. So it looks like it's pointing that way. But then another instances, I'm just like, what is this shape? So that's what I just kind of guessed sometimes. OK. Yeah.

30:36 I think I think what Joe's getting at there, which, you know, it's like a weird fault of the game here where the NES one is being so straightforward about where the direction on the putt goes. It's that it's just it's just right angles. You know, it's just here's here's it's heading left. It's heading right. This one does more design work, which which to Sean's point is true. You'll be able to tell, but it's not inherently obvious.

31:02 Yeah. And but it's also that's the setting that they were going for. Yeah. It's a bit more realistic, even though no green has these weird patterns on them. But it's also telling you how steep the curve is. And there's like eight directions it can go now instead of just four. So I think with the with the information they were trying to get across. Yeah, it wasn't perfectly clear, but I think it's something you can learn over time.

31:31 Yeah. I mean, I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure the more you play it, the more you can pick up. I don't remember NES golf only having four directions. Is that are we sure? Maybe that was false. But yeah, I didn't I also didn't realize that this one had steeper. That's cool that it does have steeper things. But the thing that bothers me is I almost think it feels a little less realistic.

31:49 Because I feel like if I'm on a golf course, even though there are no arrows indicating, it's very clear to me where the slope is, like, especially when you're on there. Whereas like here, I don't know, maybe I have to play it again. Maybe I missed something. But here it felt like I was like, I was like never 100% sure that I was right about which way the slope was going and how, you know, how steep it was.

32:08 The manual rightly assumes that most kids won't understand all of the rules of golf. And I think the manual does a great job here covering a lot of weird instances that might seem like, oh, that's kind of unfair. But then you read the manual and say, oh, well, they did mention it. So I guess I don't have an excuse. And that's one of those things where it does say that, you know, specifically on the putting green, the ball goes in the direction of the point of the mark. The bigger the mark, the more the ball is affected. And then even goes as far as to say that the influence of grass on the American course is stronger than on the Japanese course. Interesting. Damn right.

32:47 We have stronger grass over here. American grass. Yeah, I didn't read any of that. So that might also be where my issue comes in. To be continued. To be continued. To be continued.

33:25 And since we're talking about the graphics, we might as well talk about the music, because this is our first golf game with music.

33:33 Oh, yeah. Well, I'll let you know my first impression of it was it felt very, for some reason it was feeling very Johto region to me. It felt very Pokemon Gen 2. I don't know if anyone else got that, but that's what it was reminding me of. Well, it does have a bit of a, it has a bit of a Game Boy sound to it. I'm glad you brought that up because I'm listening to it right now. And yeah, it doesn't quite sound like an NES style of music, but it obviously is that they can't change chips or anything.

34:03 It just seems so distinctly, and maybe it's just the number of sound channels they're using, but it just seems so distinctly like upbeat and high use of chimes and everything like that. So I think that's really cool that you mentioned that. Right. And you mentioned the number of sound channels, and I think that's part of the reason where, because I think part of the reason where I'm making the connection is because, the first generation of Pokemon, I felt like it was like much simpler music, and the second one got a little more complex. I feel like this is like a little more complex than what we're used to hearing on the NES.

34:35 I think it's giving me like some nostalgia there. Name drop. Yeah, some nostalgia. I didn't even think of that. And I don't want to go like too deep into the differences between like stroke play and Nassau mode as if they're like, you know, as if like, oh, like we have to get into the nitty gritty of these. But, you know, with stroke play being solo and Nassau finally giving players the ability to verse computers where NES Golf didn't, I thought it was fun to play against computers. But they're pretty, they're pretty, pretty good. I think it is. Okay, so I had a situation where I played as Lee Trevino and, I'm sorry, Super Max.

35:21 And then it randomly chose Pretty Amy. And I wasn't doing too great, but I was holding my own. And I wouldn't have won a hole unless the AI for Amy actually, I thought like, was actually trying to rebel against me. Because I got pretty lucky. I forgot which hole it was. I birdied it.

35:45 And so Amy comes up on the green and she overshoots it. And now she's in the very rough or the super rough. I don't know what kind of rough it was. And so she's trying to get out. And then she doesn't hit the green again.

36:05 And it's her, it's her stroke again. And then she just starts rotating away from the hole further into the rough. That exact, that exact thing happened to me, but it wasn't Pretty Amy. It's almost as if like the computer assumes that the hole is in the hole. It was in a different spot because they, this, the computer did this 17 times before it finally randomly got in the hole.

36:31 Or like 15, something along those lines. Before it finally got in the hole by what I assume was black magic because it was off of the, the, the roughest part of the course possible. And it was just like a straight shot into the hole. So I don't know what the, what was going on with the AI in this. I don't know if I put it into some almost infinite loop, but the fact that it happened to you too is insane to me.

36:57 Yeah. I think there's some like rule in the AI that is like broken there where it's like, oh, it's always going to aim for like the easiest way to get to this situation. But like, it's not taking into account this one spot where like the hole is not in that situation. To, to bring another Pokemon reference in, in, in gen one of Pokemon, there was a, there was a, an AI glitch where there was a move that, that didn't work on one Pokemon, but the game's AI was like, oh, this is always strong against this type.

37:29 And you could like break the game by like, I think it was like you make Dragonite use rap over and over again or something. Like it's something like that, where it's like, it won't attack you because it thinks that it's super effective because the AI is broken.

37:42 And I feel like it's a situation like that. That'll be my last Pokemon reference of the day. One other thing, since we're talking about these different modes and stuff like that, there, there were two courses that we briefly touched upon some light differences, but there was the American course and the Japanese course. It pretty much auto picks the American course where you have to choose to do the Japanese one. And I'm not sure how long you guys played this game, but did you give the Japanese course a run?

38:06 Yeah. I played the American course for the NASA mode. And then once I was done with that, I played a few holes on just stroke play for the Japanese course. And I like the differences between them. Like one is much more wide open, but also like has it has different ratios of the kind of obstacles that you'll find. Whereas like the Japanese course is much more like it's, it's more of an archipelago as, as Japan is. So I like the differences.

38:41 Yeah. It felt like they had actually modeled after like a particular course in each of the countries. And, and even like the NES golf gave us in the, um, in this manual, we also get like an actual depiction of what each course looks like from like a satellite view. And I thought that was kind of funny. They look pretty realistic from the, uh, the quality of this scan. I can't even tell if it's a photograph or not.

39:11 Right, right. Oh, and this was another thing I was going to bring up. Uh, I thought this was pretty interesting. Did you guys know that there is a press rule on NASA, on the NASA mode that like will probably never happen to anybody in, in this game, but it could possibly happen. And it's like this great rule. And it happens in real life too, where if a player is behind by two or more strokes and can't win, if you choose to press, you, uh, after, um, after the last hole, you declare, you declare the press, you win the hole, the score becomes tied.

39:55 And then, uh, and then you go into like a, uh, like a final, final course, like a playoff, like a playoff thing. It's like, it's like, where did that, that rule sounds like it was just like scribbled in by somebody at the last minute. I read about this. Uh, I didn't know that it was based on anything real because it sort of makes the entire rest of the game seem like moot. Like if I, if I can pull, if I can pull that far ahead of you, shouldn't I win?

40:26 I don't know. Well, you have to remember in real life, um, you know, money is involved. So it's like a, it's like you're pretty much saying like double or nothing on your score, uh, for the, for the very last hole. So in, in real life, it would behoove you to not do this because you'll probably lose more money. Correct. If you're that far behind. Right. You've already proven that you've like lost, you know, and now you're like, actually, I want to lose more. Unless you're a hustler. That's right. That's true. But that's just for billiards, right? Right. For lunar pool only.

41:20 Yeah. I had one thing I wanted to mention and I, and I'm sorry that it sounds like my thoughts on this game is just a collection of pet peeves, but I appreciate the immersion. I don't know if I'm not having the, the computer player to really take their time to get their shot off. But I mean, it takes like, it takes like 15 seconds where they're just like, they're not even adjusting. It's like, they're just taking like a long, deep breath before they shoot. And the first couple of times they're like, Oh, it's like real golf. And then I'm like the third time. I'm like, okay, like let's play the game. I don't even take that. Yeah. I found it annoying as well. That's it. Yeah.

42:02 All right. So real quick, we'll go into the sequels and spinoffs here. And I think it's important to note that Lee Trevino would not show up in another, another golf game with his own namesake attached to it. So this is your only chance to get a Lee Trevino golf game.

42:22 I'm just glad that it happened, you know? Right. If you want, there's always Lee Carvalho's putting challenge for Christmas. You could always get that instead. Of course, that's a Simpsons reference from the episode Marge Be Not Proud in season seven. And I'm sure everybody who's a Simpsons fan knows what I'm talking about. But apparently Lee Carvalho's putting challenge is somehow making fun of Lee Trevino's fighting golf. I don't buy the connection, but there's some people trying to make it. It's pretty obvious that that's what it's making fun of.

42:57 I mean, the idea that the Simpsons in season seven, which was 1996, would be talking about a game from 1988 is a little bit of a reach. You know what? I don't agree with you. I think it's almost too obvious that it is making fun of this game. In the same way that I remember you mentioned in a prior episode about Karnov that you thought there's no way that Karnov isn't in Shantae. And it looks so obvious to me that he is. So, Mike, I think you're just a little too suspicious.

43:32 I understand now. I'm going to try to think about this tonight, but I've watched The Simpsons for a very long time, and I'm going to say that they didn't make the connection. I'm going to. I like how you're not even going to think about this tonight. You're going to try to think about it. It's like the biggest, like, I'm not really going to give this time away. You're like some typical, like, globist that thinks that there were once forests.

43:55 That's true. Or that the trees are just, like, you know, the feet of giants. They were. Yeah. Or was that the mountains? There was something about mountains were, like, something for flat earthers. I don't remember. Lee Trevino, Fighting Golf, did get an LCD game from Tiger Electronics. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Those, like, handheld LCDs?

44:24 Yes, with, like, the four, like, just several little displays that it could possibly be. It's like a game and watch. Yes. Yeah, like a game and watch. Yeah, exactly. I think it's incredible that a golf game got this, but it gives you a directional pad. It gives you a button just for swinging, and it gives you the ability to select a player and choose what kind of sound you want on or not. I think that's enough for me. I'm sold. I'd buy it. But that's it for Lee Trevino, and I think we need to instead remember that this is an SNK game, and we don't really like SNK, but we weren't too, I mean, Joe hated this game based on his complaints, but the rest of us, we weren't too down on it.

45:08 So is SNK coming around? It's like the opposite of normal. I mean, they're, they have proven that they, that they're not going to ruin everything that they touch. Okay, good call. Joe? To address your comment there, I wouldn't say I hate it. I actually do think that this is, you know, a decent game from SNK. So, you know, I'm, I'm optimistic about them. And if you want more golf games from SNK, they made Top Players Golf in 1990, which I think made it to the NES. We'll see about that one. I don't have it on the list right now, but I'm sure it did. And then there's also Neo Turf Masters, which came out in 1996.

45:48 And I don't really, like, I'm not as hyped on golf as I was back on NES golf, but wow, like the sprite work, the vibe, the, the, everything about this game makes me want to play it. It looks that good for a, like, two-dimensional sprite game.

46:07 Unfortunately, it's an AES board. And so it's going to cost you about $15,000 if you want to play Neo Turf Masters on a Neo Geo. Yeah, I'm, I'm looking at it right now. And it's, it's, I'm surprised that, like, so this is just like a, an arcade game though, right? Well, it did come to the Neo Geo and, uh, you know, they have those, those giant cartridges and those are the ones that cost like $15,000. And so, yeah, they got, like, screen capture for all of their, like, actual on field, uh, maybe, maybe it's not, maybe they painted this, but the, the, the actual players look way too realistic to be in this game.

46:52 Um, I was gonna say, I do know that, that, um, Neo Turf Masters is, or at least once was available on the Wii Shop channel. That is true. How do you know that? I know that from our favorite song, Mike, uh, Update Day by Nirvana, the band, the show. That's very true. I was going to spoil that because you can also now play it on the Switch for $15. So your choice, $15,000 or $15,000. You, you decide. Actually, it's $7.99, so it's even, like, a bigger no-brainer. Sean, I think I'm gonna buy this on Switch. What about you? I'll play it when I come over. When I can come over. Very good. Next year, yeah, next year. Yeah, next 2022. Yeah, $15,000 is a lot to play for, to pay for a game that isn't stadium events. True. I have nothing left to say. Anyway, uh, let's get into the Essential Games list.

47:51 Joe, I need your vote. I really want to replay NES Golf. I should have done it before this episode. To see now which one I like better. Because on paper, this, this has added more and improved. But then you have my little pet peeves and everything. Either way, in my memory, I remember enjoying NES Golf more at the time. Probably because I had less to compare it to. But either way, I think they're close enough where if NES Golf wasn't essential, I certainly can't make this essential.

48:19 Very well said. Sean? Well, uh, to address Joe's statement, I think that part of the reason that we do this podcast is to rip the mask of nostalgia away from everybody who's older than us's favorite video games. And try and, and try and actually look at them and see how they play now. And that's why I can't, I can't have that kind of nostalgia for NES Golf. And I wouldn't, I wasn't even one of the votes to put it on the essential games list.

48:51 So, I, I don't think anyone. No one voted. Yeah. We all just really liked it. I'm going to disagree and say that you guys put this on the essential games list. So. I definitely did. I shouldn't say definitely. I'm almost positive that. Well, it was an unofficial member considering you all played it for so long after we reviewed it. I'm still playing it.

49:14 But regardless, I do think that this is a better game than NES Golf, but I, it's still a golf game. So it's not going on the list. Um, so that's, that's where I, that's where I stand. You know, one thing that really bugged me that I didn't talk about in the episode is that in, in the manual for NES Golf. We're still in the episode. True, true. I meant to, you know, the essential games list is almost like its own episode.

49:43 And in the manual for NES Golf, they included how, like how far a ball would travel at max power for any individual club. And that helped you figure out where things were going to go. And in this game, they didn't think to include that in the manual. And so for me, this cannot be an essential game. But let me go a little further for a second. Let me go just a little bit further and say that this absolutely is a step in the right direction, both for SNK as a company and in terms of like improving sports games. This is much better in terms of like features and being fleshed out and even including like, you know, a total of 36 total holes and two different modes and a practice mode. Like there's no doubt in my mind that this is better than NES Golf.

50:37 But I was introduced to that game at a very, you know, early. Formative time in your life. Yeah, an early, a formative early time in my life. And, you know, two years ago.

50:50 And I'm just like, I think if, you know, if you put a gun to my head and tell me I can only keep one of them, I'm going to think that's a very strange request. But I might choose NES Golf over this. And that says something just about like Nintendo's charm of things and just how third party, you know, developers have. Lumpy Mario. You'd prefer to play as Lumpy Mario than the, like, the greatest of all time, Lee Trevena. That's insane. Yeah, I think I would. And it just shows you the barrier for third party developers that they don't get that Nintendo attachment to them. You know, like we judge them so much harder than our Nintendo friends. And maybe that's just because we're biased. Maybe it's because Nintendo pays us to run this podcast.

51:37 Just going to let that linger. Very good. That is all the time we have for this episode of Nostalgia. You can join us next time. We'll be playing Mylon's Secret Castle. Sorry, what was that again?

51:53 Mylon's Secret Castle. Okay. I'm looking forward to it. Yes. Yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting one. It's an action-adventure game released by Hudson Soft. Oh, looking at it now, I really don't like the look of it. Sean tried to tell me he had never heard of Hudson Soft. They're the ones with the Bumblebee mascot that were then bought by Konami. So you definitely know who I'm talking about. They made Adventure Island, our lost episode.

52:24 We never even addressed the lost episode. I addressed it on Twitter, so I feel like that's where the majority of our fans are. So that's that. I don't follow us on Twitter. That's interesting. Are you not the majority of our fans? I'm not on Twitter. That's because that episode is lost in the offices of yore, correct? Correct. And maybe someday, you know, the office, like the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory, will reopen its gates to children. Maybe someday. Hey, real fast, before we end the episode, can I just get, because, you know, we always do, like, a verdict on these games.

53:00 World Class Track Meet. Was that a play it or a skip it? World Class Track Meet? Yeah. That was a skip it for me. I think I would go skip it. Yeah, that's a skip it. Adventure Island? I think that was a skip it for me. I'm going to go play it? I can't remember. I'm going to skip it. Joe, Joe, it's not life or death. Don't worry about it. I'm not going to hold you. Okay, thank God, thank God. If you can't even remember the game, it's a skip it. I thought you were the guy with the gun to my head.

53:26 No, the guy with the gun to your head only asked about golf. No, but I remember Adventure Island. I just can't remember how much I remember. Oh, you know what it was? It was Adventure Island Quest, the mobile game that I think is a play it and an essential games list game. Yeah, you actually picked up, like, a Nokia N-Gage to play that, right? For sure. Yes. I also have Tony Hawk.

53:48 I've got one more thing to say. Yeah. Before we wrap up. I still have more games. Don't worry. Oh, more games. Oh, okay. Go on. Then I'll do my thing in the post-show. That'd be great. Galaga Demons of Death. I would say that was a play it, not a skip it. I think I would say play it as well, especially because I'm not a shmup guy. Just interesting. Okay. Galgo 13? I would say play it. Yeah, it's broken jank, but let's play it. But it's worth experiencing. And Jackal? I'd give that a play it. I'd play it. Wow. You guys are loving these games now. Yeah. I actually, the only one I'm thinking... Play the shit out of that.

54:32 I think I might change my answer on Galaga. To skip it? To skip it, yeah, personally. But the rest I'm sticking with. Okay. That sounds great. Thank you guys for that research. Join us in the post-show for Joe's Soapbox. And from our audio producer, in quarantine, everything's a play it.

55:20 Welcome to the post-show. The only thing I wanted to say, to clear up, is that in Pokemon Red and Blue, all three of Lance's Dragonair know agility as their only psychic-type move. Agility is a status move rather than a damage-dealing move. However, these Dragonair, due to the AI, will be locked on agility against a poison-type such as a Zubat. So a Zubat can beat Lance's Dragonairs. At a level, you know, at any level, just because they will not attack you.

55:49 So that's the AI glitch. Okay, I feel that, but can you explain something to me for a minute? Sure. Why does Lance have three Dragonites? Because there just weren't enough Dragon-types. He has two Dragonairs and a Dragonite. I just think that's insane. But what other Dragon-types are there? Yeah. It seems like a bad decision to make a Dragon Trainer if you don't have enough Dragon-types. What we... Oh, we're talking about... I thought we were talking about Marauder Shields. No, we were talking about Monster Rancher.

56:21 That's a game I haven't even heard of in a while. Was that any good? No. No? No. Monster Rancher? Monster. Or Spindigimon. Really? Yeah. I remember I played... Monster Rancher sounds like a Monster Cheese Ranch Dorito. I remember I was staying at my cousin's house for a week during the summer of probably 90-something, and there was a PlayStation 1 game about Digimon, and the only real thing that I remember from that game is that... They would take a shit. I don't remember that, but that they would grow meat out of the ground, as if you could just farm meat, as if it were a crop. Yes. Digimon World. I had it as well on the PlayStation. It's now a very rare game. I own it, and it's worth full retail value. Wow. But they do poop in that game.

57:24 I will send you a link. What's... Like, gone to your head, what's better? Digimon World or Red Dead Redemption 2, in terms of animals pooping? I think I'm going to have to give this one to Digimon World, because Agumon's poop is, like, photorealistic. All right. Agumon poop. But it's weird. I feel like it's much weirder, because isn't Agumon, like, a character? Like, he's not just, like, an animal. He's, like, got, like, a personality. I think that's no different than saying, like, isn't it weird that...

58:01 Oh, wow. They just have, like, animal-like cries. Okay. Yeah, I'm watching... I'm watching Agumon poop right now, and... The thing is that there's a lot of it. I never would have thought that there'd be that much. Why does he keep doing that? All he has to do is just go to the bathroom, too. If you just let him go to the bathroom in the outhouse, then you won't have to worry about the poop going anywhere. But wouldn't this relieve his need to use the bathroom instead of continuing to poop until he goes to the bathroom? It seems that he's pooping in protest. Right. Apparently, Digimon is good.