243 · Ironsword: Wizards & Warriors II

• THE SAGA OF WIZARDS & WARRIORS™ CONTINUES...
• NES Longplay
• Introductions
  • So do we all remember Wizards and Warriors 1 from 154 episodes ago?
  • Italian model Fabio portrays the protagonist Kuros on the game’s cover, but he does not make an in-game appearance.
• Manual
  • Malkil went mad with AGE instead of rage. I like the wordplay
  • Manual acts more like a strategy guide
    • Lists out everything and even tells you which spells to use against the elementals
  • Weird note about the Inn.
    • You’ll know when you’re there because there will be armor on the walls and cups on the shelves. Might not sound silly, but imagine if that’s how they described every level. You’ll know you’re in the cloud level because you’ll be surrounded by clouds.
• Plot
  • Malkil IS BACK and this time has taken the form of the four "Elementals", Earth, Wind, Fire, and Water. The objective is to assemble the legendary "IronSword" – the only weapon that can defeat Malkil – and defeat the evil wizard who lies at the peak of IceFire Mountain.
    • Malkil is like Bowser. Pretty sure he died, but SOMEHOW HE RETURNED.
• Gameplay
  • The four domains
    • In each domain, Kuros must find a golden artifact that belongs to the domain's "Animal King" and return it to him.
    • Upon doing so, the path to the second part of the domain will appear. In the second part, Kuros must find the magic spell necessary to defeat the boss – the domain's Elemental.
    • Without the spell, it is impossible to damage the boss, or even remain in the room with him.
    • Once the elemental in each stage has been destroyed, Kuros obtains a piece of the IronSword, which is needed for the final battle on Icefire Mountain.
  • Money
    • Buying equipment and spells
  • Spells
    • "The Familiar Spell," which turns enemies into money and helps retrieve golden objects
    • the "Dragon Tooth Spell," which turns enemies into food
    • the "Veil of Slumber Spell," which slows down enemies
    • the "Silver Fleece Spell," which makes Kuros temporarily invincible
    • and the "Water Spout Spell," which creates an upward column of water that allows Kuros to reach high places.
    • Each spell has a limited number of uses before it vanishes from the player's inventory.
• Development
  • According to Ste Pickford: "The NES seemed primitive by comparison, sub-Commodore 64. But the games were ten times better than everything being released for home computers, which we appreciated, and we wanted to try to make games as good as that." Rare decided to hire Zippo Games to develop this Wizards & Warriors sequel
  • They were heavily influenced by Ghosts N Goblins trying to make the game
• Sequels and Spinoffs
  • Wizards and Warriors 3, who is excited to complete the trilogy?
• EGL
• Next week - Knight Rider
• NEStalgia Byte - Star Luster

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Iron Sword, Wizards and Warriors 2, the saga of Wizards and Warriors trademark continues.

00:22 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. Wizards and Warriors 2, or just Iron Sword, your choice, because it's oddly not Wizards and Warriors 2 Iron Sword, it's Iron Sword, Wizards and Warriors 2. Before we talk about this sequel at all, though, do we remember Wizards and Warriors 1 from 154 episodes ago? It's very vague, yeah. I remember there was a suit of armor and a wobbly sword. I remember there were a lot of trees and it was sometimes unclear what you could jump on.

01:08 These are all things we also mentioned in the episode, so that's good. And we're not going to talk too much about Wizards and Warriors 1 here because there's a whole episode for that, guys. So if you're like, wait, what were your opinions? Go back to that episode and then come here and join us right now. Okay, so you listened to the episode and you're in here now for Wizards and Warriors 2 talk.

01:27 Wizards and Warriors 2 is technically listed as made by Rare, but it wasn't made by them. I think it was made by a company called Zippo Games, who like basically submitted. Like the lighters? No, no, no, that'd be interesting. Yeah. They just unfortunately named themselves something that would be confused with the lighter company. But Zippo Games was also a UK-based development studio.

01:51 And I think they pitched a prototype thing to Rare and Rare was like, oh, this is great. You guys want to make the sequel to Wizards and Warriors 2, one of our very first games on the NES? And that feels like a lot to give to somebody who just showed you a prototype or something. It's like, hey, have our IP and make it for us instead of us because we're busy working on Wheel of Fortune Junior Edition. Yeah, that is weird. I mean, going back to what I remember about Wizards and Warriors 1, this doesn't seem to be too much of a departure. So it's weird that like another company would be showing their like, here's our prototype. Like you already did this. Like it's basically the same thing, but this is how we did it. Can we do this?

02:39 Like that? It just sounds odd. Yeah, maybe it was like, okay, we're done with that. We're moving on to something else. So, all right, let's let these other guys take a shot at it. Like, you know, I feel like like, like Pokemon does that now where it's like Game Freak is making like some, you know, Game Freak is making like a newer departure from Pokemon. So they like gave a lot of the remakes or and stuff to like some other company. Okay, that makes sense.

03:04 Yeah, and Rare did this first off, just just to make it clear, like there used to be a limit on how many games a developer was allowed to release on Nintendo consoles like for a year. But Nintendo was in such good standing with Rare that the loophole was is that they just had to keep publishing them under different studios. So Rare couldn't be the publisher, but they could develop as many games as they wanted for the year as long as they could get Acclaim, Game Tech, Milton Bradley, whoever else. Acclaim did this one, but whoever could publish their games for them, they exceeded the amount of games allowed per year to do that. So that's why we keep hearing about Rare because they're just churning them out.

03:44 And, you know, they also have like shadow companies making the games for them. What would the thinking behind having a limit per company of how much you can release? Like, what's the point? That sounds like that sounds like a holdover from the crash. Yeah, I was thinking the crash too. That makes sense. Just to make sure that there aren't, you know, 1000 NES games after only three years of, you know, being a console. And then all of a sudden nobody wants to buy Super Mario Brothers because there's 400 clones. Yeah, making sure that they're also probably making sure that the companies are putting out like quality over quantity effort.

04:19 Yeah, get that seal. Exactly. The official Nintendo seal. And Iron Sword Wizards and Warriors 2 also has probably one of the most prolific covers for any NES game. That's Fabio. Oh, yeah. On the front cover there. It's perfect. I love it. It's not how I picture the Fabio is not what I picture underneath the suit of armor on the sprite art at the game. Oh, no, not at all. And like, I just sort of like forgot about Fabio. Like, I know that he was on the cover of a lot of like paperback, like smut books that you'd buy and like your mom would buy in a supermarket or something.

04:57 Um, but I did not know that he was on any video game cover. This was a treat. And Joe, to your point about, you know, the character, the player character and stuff like that. I feel like that's also applicable to the romance novels that Fabio was also taking part in. You don't picture, maybe the woman does, but like, you don't picture Fabio as the character. He's just on the cover. So like, again, I mean, why? That doesn't mean anything. Yeah, the people, the person reading the book would picture Fabio. I would imagine. If he's on the cover, you assume that that's what he looks like, right?

05:33 Under the armor. Well, I didn't look at the cover before I started playing this game, admittedly. Okay, I guess I'm just saying like, sure, it could be Koros or it could just be anybody, right? The guy has an iron sword. He fits the bill for the cover. Yeah, Fabio is pretty much an everyman. Thank you for that. So Malkiel is back.

05:52 And it sounds so funny that we're like saying these things as matter of fact, when if you didn't play Wizards and Warriors one, that doesn't mean anything. Malkiel was the evil villain in Wizards and Warriors one. And I'm pretty sure we killed him. But I guess Malkiel is like Bowser, where it's also, I'm pretty sure Bowser drowned in lava, but then somehow they just come back. So Malkiel's back. And this time, he's taken the form of the four elementals, earth, wind, fire, and water. Your objective is to assemble the legendary iron sword, the only weapon that can defeat Malkiel and defeat the evil wizard at the peak of ice fire mountain.

06:29 Is that enough of a plot? It kind of changed up a little bit because last time we were in, you know, in search of a princess. And now this time we're just doing more of a, you know, go to these four lands and acquire the elementals to be able to go to the highest point in the land and take on the evil wizard.

06:47 I mean, it's pretty, it's, it's pretty bargain bin. It's, there's nothing really new here, but as we'll, as I think we'll get into, I think that the way that they sort of executed this very simple plot was, was, was good. Yeah. I feel like the, those elements of the plot are really just there to like tee up the environments that you're going to be in throughout. Like, oh, you're going to, you know, like, like it tells you where you're going to go. And there's a map in the, in the, um, actual game that kind of shows these environments as well. And it just kind of like gives context to that, but doesn't really like, um, you know, at no point I'm like, am I like, wow, what is going to happen next?

07:31 Right. And also reading the plot in that way, you kind of think you'd be able to choose the elements. Like, uh, I'm going to take on the earth guy first. I'm going to take on the wind guy. Uh, you don't get to do that. Obviously there's a map that lays out similar to wizards and warriors one. Uh, you know, you started in the earth area in wizards and warriors one, and then you worked your way underground. It follows a path that is set on the map and you watch your character kind of land in the new zone, not necessarily a map that you could refer back to like, Oh, here's where I am right now. But instead just something to track the progress throughout in wizards and warriors.

08:09 One, that game was more focused on collecting diamonds to pay off a guy to let you through to the next area. And we were talking about that being more of a collectathon style game.

08:21 What you would have to do is collect a hunt. Let's say a hundred diamonds. There would be another night who looked just like you, except for he was red. And he would say, no, I need a hundred diamonds. And if you didn't have a hundred diamonds, you couldn't get through. Then after that, it'd be like, okay, now you need a red key. And if you didn't have the red key, you couldn't go through. And so it was about going through an area that had a limited amount of diamonds around it. And just trying to, you know, canvas every nook and cranny to find enough diamonds. And there were more than enough. So it wasn't like you'd have to keep searching around for the one additional one you needed. But that was the like objective there in this one.

09:01 It does stay the same through the four elemental domains of what you have to do, but it's a little more involved of finding a particular spell and meeting a particular side character who helps you kind of get to the part two of the domain. Joe, do you want to talk more about that gameplay loop?

09:22 Yeah. I mean, particularly with the, the collectathon quote unquote element from the first one. I mean, yeah, you're right. It's different now. It's like, they're more specific and I guess like story driven items that you have to get, but it's still felt to me very much like the gameplay loop is like, find the thing you need to find to get to the next area, move to the next area, find the next thing you need to find to beat the boss. And, you know, I would say that to that part of the gameplay, I felt that it was pretty unclear a lot of the times. Now, maybe I'm missing things. Maybe there are people you talk to that say, hey, find this.

09:59 A lot of times I felt like I was just opening chests until I found an item and I was like, well, is this the item I'm supposed to use? And then I would go try, go to the next area and, and, you know, it would either take me there or not. But, uh, I never felt like I knew what I was supposed to be looking for, for a long time. In fact, pretty shortly in, I started just kind of watching a guide as I was playing. So it was, so I would get my, my objective from that, but I never felt like the game was inherently giving me the objective. So it's one of those games I feel like where like, I don't know how you would know to do the things you're supposed to do. If that makes any sense.

10:36 Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's laid out in the manual, but you're right that in the first game, you know, you don't necessarily run right into the red knight who tells you, give me a hundred diamonds, but diamonds are just everywhere. So you're naturally collecting those. I agree that it's not, it's not that different from collect this one thing versus collect this hundred things. Like, uh, maybe it's even better to collect less of something to progress on in the game, but there is nobody you speak to in this game other than the, uh, innkeeper to give you any kind of information. But even the innkeeper doesn't give you information.

11:08 He's just there to buy and trade with you. No one says you need to get the familiar spell or the dragon toot spell. Those are just things you find in a treasure chest. And then once you, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So there's like, there's a couple steps to this. Like there's a, um, there's like the, the, the primary area where you start off and there's going to be like a, an animal spirit or something.

11:35 And just like the red, uh, the, the red soldier, the red night, there'll be a little like text box. That's like, here, find this thing. And it's just like an image of the thing that you have to find.

11:48 And, uh, then you just sort of search the map for it. And then you'll get a little pop-up that says like, Oh, you found the golden egg or the golden fly or the golden crown or whatever. And then you go and you talk to the animal and you give it to him and he lets you into like phase two of the level.

12:05 And that's where that's like, it's a little more vague because you don't know the name of the spell that you're trying to find. That's like going to, uh, be the weakness for the boss. Um, but then you basically just like, you look around, you're, you'll find a thing. And if it's, if it sounds like another element, then that's probably the thing that you need to defeat the boss. And then you go when you, you shoot at it and you'll probably win cause the bosses aren't too, uh, aren't too crazy.

12:37 Uh, but that, I mean like there's still some information provided like contextually. Okay. So they do, they, they do, um, give you that information. If you, if you go to the animal before you have what you need. I did notice that in, in like the third level of volcano level that the dragon told me what, where to go, I guess I just didn't run, ever run into the animals before I, you know, beforehand in order to like get my clue.

13:02 Yeah. But I wasn't until the forest that I realized that that was sort of the mechanic because like I was in, uh, I think I was just like on the mountain, whatever the first level is. And I keep getting attacked by these birds and like, well, these birds suck. And then eventually like one of them talks to me and is like, Hey, I'm going to take you up here into the clouds if that's okay. And I'm just like, Oh great. A nice bird. And it's like, does he say if that's okay with you?

13:30 Yeah. No, I know. I made that up, but, uh, that was, uh, it wasn't until like the second level that I realized I think, Oh, that's what they're doing. Yeah. I get that these guys are telling you. Cause I saw even with the very first Eagle, I actually just kept climbing up the stage until you get to the part where the Eagle is where he theoretically would carry you to the cloud part of the stage, but I didn't have the egg yet. So I got the message and everything. The problem is, it's just not helpful. It's a, it's, it's not actually, it's just not carefully laid out in the stage in a specific,

14:01 like hidden spot or something, or a progression point where you would find the egg. It's just randomly like placed out in a weird crevice area in the bottom right of the map, which I guess isn't terrible because you'd never have to travel. If you just keep walking to the right, you would see it and then be like, Oh, I wonder how I collect that thing. But it's not particularly interesting to, to find that. And the character in the game isn't helping you with like location specifics on where you might find those things. So I find that, uh, that objective a little, uh, more obtuse than the diamonds thing. Cause when the guy tells you needs a hundred diamonds, there's no question about like, well, where the hell would I find those?

14:41 No, it's, it's definitely like, it doesn't help, but it at least like shows that, okay, okay, there's a key item. I got to find the key item. Not so much like, Oh, where would the key item be? Right. And that does give you, you know, give you something to go off of. But the other thing that like, I wish that they had done or talked about was how to get some, not even where, but sometimes how to get some of these items because like, you were talking about the forest level. That's where we need to get the golden fly.

15:07 You can at some point see the golden fly, but it's like under the ground in one of the caves. But there's like, the way you get it is you have to go somewhere else in the level, find a spell that gives you like, it's like the water spout spell, then go to a very specific spot, climb up to a very specific spot where you can't see the fly from there. But you just have to know to go to this spot, use the spell and it'll shoot you up through the ground and into the spot where the golden fly is.

15:33 And it feels like, I just don't know how you would figure that out without reading it. No, absolutely. It's really just like that old school, just like give just poke and prod everywhere. Like there's no actual, uh, like you don't feel clever finding these hidden things. It's just like, oh, I was thorough.

15:53 And it's not like there's any context to like, oh, it makes sense that the golden fly would be here based on everything else that's around here. It's just like, no, like you just ended up canvassing the entire map and you found the fly. And the manual is also another reference point of everything in the game. Like it literally includes every single item, how many points it's worth different, um, even tells you like which element to use, uh, again, against the elementals. So, you know, the fire smite is what it takes to really burn the fire elementals. What they say, these things aren't actually useful though. None of this stuff is useful.

16:31 Like, yeah, they're telling you, they're giving you like a description for everything, which is cool world building, but they're trying to act almost like a lot of stuff. Like a strategy guide without pointing you in any particular direction or, or even leaving hints for where, uh, in, in the particular levels, these things might be. And there's a vague way to do that too, but to go through the trouble of listing out everything in the game and really just have it be more for, for flair.

16:54 I don't know. I didn't care for that, especially as the manual acting like some kind of strategy guide. Also weird in the manual is they have this note about the inn and, uh, it says, you'll know when you're there because there will be armor on the walls and cups on the shelves.

17:10 And that might not sound too silly, but imagine if that's how they described every level, you know, you're in the cloud level because you'll be surrounded by clouds. Like, I don't know. It doesn't, doesn't sound like the, it sounds like they didn't know what to write about the game because it's pretty obvious. The inn itself is a weird, yeah. The inn itself is like a weird, uh, outtake of this game that doesn't feel connected to the other things of all of a sudden you're, you have money and you're purchasing items

17:36 rather than finding them when there's so much treasure and items to find within the actual map. And then you're like, well, if you have some money, if you want to buy some food or, uh, one particular, uh, item that you couldn't get anywhere else or play a gambling game with us, like, here's the spot to do it. Otherwise, uh, what are you doing in the inn? Also, you know, it doesn't function like an inn.

18:00 It functions like a shop or a bar. You don't stay there. I mean, I guess, uh, uh, I, is there like a, is that where the passwords are generated? I maybe, uh, maybe not, but I think that's where the passwords are. So it kind of functions like an inn, but I, I like the shop mechanic where, um, you it like, well, yes, there are these other things that you find around the map. Like if you can buy an upgraded sword there, uh, you can, uh, like that can be a safe haven where if you have the, um, the coin, you can buy some food and get your health back to like not danger zone.

18:39 Um, I also think that, uh, leaving the map, cause since they, they switched everything to more like a key item instead of a, uh, collect everything. And, um, uh, you have to pay to, to move forward. Uh, now that everything's just key items, I guess the map would feel kind of barren without other collectibles around, uh, aside from keys.

19:03 Um, so it's a good place to, to, to spend your cash. And I don't know. I think that like having a little safe haven, especially in a, in a Nintendo hard game like this, uh, it, it felt refreshing to me. I think it just feels out of place because it makes it seem like the game's having an identity crisis. I, I look at this game and see it more as just a typical action NES style game where you're just going level to level. And when you complete the level, you know, think like, uh, Castlevania one style, but the game wants it to be RPG in certain elements by giving like side characters have quests where they want you to get a particular item each time and before that you can carry on.

19:47 And then the in having purchasable things that, you know, may or may not matter in the, in the grand scheme of things. I agree. It's a nice break from the nonstop enemies on screen and stuff like that. And it was welcome to, it did feel like I was resting, but I, I just didn't see why they couldn't include the kinds of things that you find there throughout the land.

20:10 So I don't have like a strong opinion one way or the other. I was definitely relieved when I would come across an inn and could buy some food. Um, but I personally, maybe, you know, maybe this is a little bit of a segue, but I personally thought that I would like something like that, but more just because the safe haven element of it. I mean, just because this game, you're never safe.

20:34 Like not even like for, for beats in between enemies. Like we talk about, we talk about enemies like that spawn randomly and how we don't like that, uh, in a lot of games. But this I think is like, I mean, this is just pure chaos on the screen, especially in the earlier levels. I feel like it's better later on, but like in the earlier levels, it's just like, it's like it's raining enemies at all times.

20:57 Yeah. I, I, I, I had to take breaks because of it. It was just, there's too much, it's like overexposure. Um, and I feel like this was also an issue in the original. Um, but it, I, I just wasn't expecting, uh, it, it to be this intense. Yeah. Go ahead. I was going to say it, the, the intensity of the, the enemy placement combined with like how unclear it is if you're hitting them or they're hitting you or like when you should attack. And like, it just makes it like almost like feels arbitrary to even fight. Like, I just feel like I just run and jump and hope I kill something.

21:54 It's important to remember in the first game, just how easy that game was. Uh, if it was more of like, if you had the will to finish it, that was a game that gave you unlimited continues. You picked up right where you died, which you kind of do in this game too. Don't get me wrong. But also in that game, since it was collecting things, you didn't lose anything you collected

22:16 and, um, and the jump, uh, in the game, that attack, like he would raise the sword up and he kind of does it here too. It just was more powerful in that first game where it almost made you a little bit invincible as long as you were attacking anything above you in, in this game. I feel like even that jump attack where he's just kind of pointing his sword up in the air doesn't respond a hundred percent of the time. Sometimes I'm confused about why it registers as a hit or why it registers as me getting hit.

22:50 Yeah. It's definitely not as, uh, it's, it's a bit more finicky in this one. And I, even when I wasn't getting hit, the feedback still felt like I was. So like psychologically, I'm not having a good time. Uh, and I think it's also because like you, you, especially early on before you get like the, uh, the diamond sword, it's, it's just physically harder to hit them cause you have a smaller weapon. Yeah. Also your like weapon animation, your like swing weapon animation is not clear on like what your hit boxes or what you're like swords hit boxes. Cause you just sort of like, you just sort of like wiggle the sword a little bit. You don't like stab it forward or like, it's really weird.

23:37 If you, if you crouch, you get more of like a lurching, but that, that's sort of, that's very, uh, situational. And when you group that with the nonstop enemies and the weird platforming that they've created in terms of level design here, you wind up fault, you know, there's three things that can happen. Either you have to continue to do damage control on the enemies around you and not, you know, you know, and make progress slowly.

24:05 I suppose the second thing that can happen is you try to dodge or stay away from enemies and then accidentally fall off these very small platforms and lose a significant amount of progress on an area that you've already made. And since there aren't interesting things to collect, now you just, your sole task is just go climb back up this, up all these platforms again.

24:27 Or you can just stand in your position and just keep trying to deal with the enemies, uh, and do nothing. That will never stop. Yeah. Right. That will just never stop. I feel like the obvious answer is get the enemies to stop spawning in this way. It's like, congratulations. You took care of all the enemies on this particular section of the screen. They probably will spawn back in if you leave this section of the screen, but don't worry about them for now.

24:54 Yeah. Uh, it really is hard to overstate how mind numbingly exhausting it is just like trying to get your footing, like trying to jump up a cloud over and over because it's such a specific pixel perfect jump, uh, and going forward in the other levels too, while being just hounded by these enemies. It like a lot of parts of this game are, are fun and interesting, but like, I can't overstate how much that is. It just overwhelming is the word. Yeah. And to, to kind of expand on that, like tediousness of jumping those pixel perfect jumps.

25:42 Yes. While all these enemies are coming at you, but like, it's like the, the platform being sometimes a lot of times is designed in a way that just feels like either they were deliberately trying to make it incredibly frustrating or they just didn't think about like, Hey, like, does this work the way we're putting this? Like a lot of times those clouds in the second level.

26:02 So like, first of all, there are slopes that you will like slide down. You can't land on certain slopes with the clouds. It's very difficult to tell what's a slope and what's not. So a lot of times I think I'm jumping to the next cloud platform and it turns out to be a slope and I just slide off and then I have no control over where I'm going to end up. But also like sometimes you're trying to hit this pixel perfect spot that's above the slope. And if you miss it, you're going to fall down the slope.

26:26 And a lot of times, not just in the cloud level, they put like the ceiling really low right at that spot. So like, I can't even get like a really good jump because I hit the ceiling and it knocks me straight down. And there really does feel like there's only like one possible exact input that would get me like high enough to get me right to the, to the top of the slope, but low enough to not hit the ceiling. And Joe, what you're describing is the way to get the damn elemental spell that would take

26:54 out the boss that in the cloud level, they tuck it behind an area that requires you to perfectly jump over five or six of those. Right? Yeah. And that was like the first time I remember it's like a sub level. It's like a little, it's a secondary screen that you have to jump over these weird cloud formations, but very little room to maneuver.

27:15 Right. But that's the only way to get the wind band. Right. It's a required item. Yeah. So all that frustration and it's not even just like, you know, a part of the level or something, it's a mandatory thing that every player must experience. Right. And then that was only the first time I noticed that, like I noticed it a lot in later levels too, that same kind of frustration.

27:34 Well, the cloud thing is also interesting because it's the second, it's the second part of the very first level. And I think they tried to have some fun with the platforming by making it so that if you time your jump, you jump higher, but it winds up becoming this bounce house thing where it's like, I want to get off the ride.

27:54 You know, I'm tired of timing my, my jumps every single time as I'm going from small little cloud to the next one, unsure if I'm going to make it. And if I don't make it, I'm falling back down to the bottom. I think they opened up the, the challenge way too early there. And later levels don't even really have that effect of the, of timing the jump to spring higher. Uh, that's really just for the cloud section, right?

28:17 Well, uh, I, I will agree that they really, um, that everything that we've been saying, uh, now add on that, that silly like bounce house thing where not like nothing feels comfortable or, uh, like how you intend it. But, um, I will say that the, you don't have to time your jump. You can just hold down, jump and it'll do it. Oh shit. That's so funny.

28:46 I don't know. I guess I'm just like used to, I'm used, I was used to it too. Yeah. So many games. I don't even have to think of an example. Sean, you were talking earlier about these elemental bosses being pretty easy.

28:58 Uh, I think they communicate well that you can't do any damage to them until you have that thing. Like if you go into that room earlier, there's just nothing that you can do to hurt it. So you obviously need to get the, uh, the particular Bane, are they all called Bane? No wind Bane, no light water, fire, smite and earth scorch. So if you get that thing, then it becomes this projectile that you shoot out of your sword. Um, and then you're just firing that at a distance. There's no real reason to get close to these guys. Uh, and you're firing that at the elemental bosses to take care of them.

29:34 Yeah. I really didn't feel like there was much here. They did great sprite work on these, on these elemental bosses and made them feel like big enemies. Uh, you know, there could be potential problems, but as long as you stay at a distance, doesn't really seem, you know, it seems more of just making sure that you're good with your jump. Yeah. You, you basically just find the safe spot and spam.

29:54 Uh, I, I noticed that, but one thing that I think was going on was if you don't have the spell, every like projectile that it fires at you is going to one shot you. And I think that's supposed to tell you like, you're not supposed to be here right now. Go get the thing, do the stuff. Um, and then I feel like when you come back with the spell, like it's still going to do a lot of damage, but it's not going to be a one shot thing.

30:21 Um, but then it's like, uh, it's relatively simple, but when it comes to the sprite work, I think that the, like the actual, like the prettier stuff where, where the animals that you talk to that just sort of like, okay, yeah, here's the, I'm going to take you here or like, okay, I'm going to allow you to come through here. I wanted those to be the bosses and not so much these like huge walls of element. Oh yeah. They were definitely the more like well-designed elements of the game. But the, the other thing about the bosses that kind of, that was a little frustrating. I mean, you know, it was just part of the gameplay.

31:02 It was, it was definitely deliberate was that you need, you need full magic in order to, um, or at least a lot of magic, your, your, your magic bar in order to beat them. And sometimes you are at the end of the level. You don't have any, I mean that I was at the, um, I think it was the third level, the volcano level got to the boss, had no magic and barely anyone. And I feel like through the whole game, everyone was dropping magic all the time. Could not find anyone that was dropping magic. I mean, it took me like a half hour, like build up my magic in order to, to beat the boss. And it, and it, it just felt like it was like, all right, I have the spell that I need.

31:38 You don't really use magic for anything else other than the bosses. So it felt like such a chore to have to just go out and like collect mana or whatever you want to call it for just, just so I could even fight the boss. Like I didn't even have an option to fight the boss without it. Like, but aren't there enemies in, inside the boss battle that you could theoretically keep hitting to hope that they would spawn? They won't do it every time. Like, it's not like killing them gains you magic, but that they, they might be the ones to. I mean, there were inside the boss battle, but then I'm just in the boss battle getting,

32:08 getting my ass kicked while I'm trying to collect things. And I'm telling you in that, in that third level, like nobody dropped it. Like it was like at one and every like 15 enemies would drop like one orb of, of magic or something. So it took me forever. So like, I would not want to be standing in front of the boss as it's attacking me, uh, trying to collect enough magic to take it on. Sounds like a neat item that the innkeeper could have sold you. Yeah. I thought you were about to say, it sounds like a you problem.

32:36 No, no, no, no. I think, I think that the magic meter in this game, uh, actually limits the, the coolness of the magic because there's probably something else that they could have, they could have either given you like the magic meter is refilled more frequently by enemies. Like if it, if it detects that you're like less than half, it's just more, uh, welcoming in terms of the amount of enemies that would possibly give magic.

33:05 Or if there was just other ways to restore your magic rather than farming enemies over and over again, I get why they went with the farming thing. Enemies are everywhere in this freaking game and they don't stop. So might as well include them as a reason to fight these guys rather than just keep dodging them. But I would have liked the second option. Yeah. If there was, if there was another way to do it, that would have been a little more

33:29 tolerable. And even if like, maybe if you could, if it was, um, if using magic outside of a boss battle was like a thing, like it's not, you don't really do it unless you're fighting a boss. So it's, it feels way too, uh, this specific use case that it feels less like magic and more, more like here's like a different mode of play. That's specifically for the bosses.

33:57 Right. And that, that adds to the like feeling of like, it's not a part of the gameplay normally. So it feels like I just got another task. Like, Hey, I found, I found the boss. I found the item I need now go collect a bunch of the, the, you know, the fuel for the item you need. Whereas like, if I were using that, that mana throughout the game, it would just feel like, Oh yeah, of course I got to collect more mana.

34:20 Cause I need to power my magic. But it just feels like it's just like artificially just giving you another task to do. Sean, that's a good point that the elements don't, uh, the spells, sorry, that you collect to fight the elements. They don't necessarily feel like they're changing the gameplay because it's just a projectile that does damage to that particular elemental. And then it's, it's kind of just inconsequential otherwise. So you're spending a good portion of the second part of each level, trying to find that spell that ultimately just results in you being able to fight the boss. Yeah, exactly. It's just another key item that like gives you like in, in, in each different boss battle,

35:03 like the projectile that you're shooting behaves a little differently. But, but the fact that you're only using it against this boss, it may as well be this like a bonus level.

35:16 Yeah. I wonder how different the game would have been if you didn't collect these spells. And instead it was about once you got to the second part, trying to find and track down the elemental and then fight him with your sword, you know, uh, or other spells that you acquired that don't require the elementals, like the familiar spell or the dragon toot spell and stuff like that, like using that stuff that feels like it could be a, I don't know.

35:41 It would definitely change up the gameplay, but it feels like it would make the boss fights a little more interesting too, because now rather than fighting from a distance and shooting projectiles that I don't know, they don't really feel like something a knight does. Uh, now it's like here you, um, here you actually have to think about sword combat against these giant elementals. Well, this is not the game for sword combat, Mike. Yeah. No, thanks.

36:05 But yeah, I know what you're saying too. I think the, like the opposite way you could go to is like, you get this spell, you have to use it on the boss for the first time. And then in the next level you have that spell and you can, now it's like, oh, I beat the boss with this spell. Now I can use it in regular gameplay in the next level. I mean, you'd have to redesign the whole game to make it, you know, to make it like, uh,

36:28 designed around that. So to keep the challenge up and everything, but like that would make me feel like, oh, I am getting more powerful with each thing. Like, yeah, I defeated the boss and now I'm taking what I quote unquote like learned or gained from, from that fight and moving on to the rest of the journey. Yep. Could have just taken the Mega Man queue. Exactly. One thing that I did like, and that did give me a feeling of actual like, uh, growth and the word that is obvious.

37:10 progression. Progression, uh, was the upgrades are visually reflected on your person. Like you get a, you get a helmet, you got a helmet, you get a helmet with horns, you got a helmet with horns, you get a sword that's long and like has a cooler name. Your, your sword's bigger now and it looks cooler. Now I appreciated that. A little strange that he came to battle without a helmet though. Right? I mean, sometimes you just forget your helmet, man. Or a shield.

37:39 Yeah. He did. Does he not have a helmet in the beginning? It looks weird. I mean, it, his, I feel like this, the color. What makes it look like he's just wearing like a skin tight helmet, but I guess that's just his head. Yeah. Now that I look at it, it looks way too small to be a helmet. I just assumed he had his helmet on. Yeah. I don't know why. Now that I'm looking at it, Joe, if that's true, it looks like it's, he looks like the Tin Man. Maybe he is a robot.

38:06 Robot. Going back to the platforming aspect of the game for a minute. Just thinking about everything I ever learned from Super Mario Maker, a fantastic game first on Wii U and then Switch that teaches you, you know, how to make your own platforming levels and stuff like that based on the tools in Super Mario Brothers. Granted, they were working off about 35 years of Super Mario Brothers 2D platforming stuff. But in those games, you have so much variety in the types of platforms, in the, uh, in the way that you choose to lay out those platforms. I'm not focusing so much on the level design for a minute. I just want to talk about the choices here inside each level is just one particular flat

38:51 platform that whether it's floating or locked to the, uh, you know, to the ground that that's the platform. And then the other alternative is a slope and the slopes and platforms are what the whole like experience of the game is designed around. And I feel like what's unforgiving about this is that you don't have control of yourself over the slopes in Super Mario Brothers.

39:16 You get control when you, uh, Super Mario world rather is when they introduce slopes, you get control over that slope and can use it as a momentum thing or to, you know, try to stop on your heels and assess what's coming next in this game because you have no control over the slopes. It just feels like a very punishing, uh, game of like shoots and ladders sometimes with these slopes. Yeah.

39:38 You, you, it's funny you said that cause it's the first thing I thought of in that first level where there are like, you can get to the top and you can hit one slope and it keeps transferring you from slope to slope until you're like down in some other random place. You can't even jump off or anything like it's, it's very, um, yeah, you're completely without control. Yeah. I hated it. I don't have anything else, anything else to offer there.

40:01 Well, you also mentioned kind of like that. There's just these two elements of it and, and you kind of put into words what I was trying to like articulate before we started. I was trying to like think of how to word this, but, but it's very, it's just feels like nothing feels distinct and nothing feels like, Oh, I'm in a new place now.

40:20 I know it's just, if you're at the, you know, if I'm at the volcano level, like once in a while there's a little volcano thing, but otherwise it's just a bunch of red platforms, like red, red, rocky platforms. They look good. They look fine. They look like rocks, you know, but like nothing changes. Nothing feels like, like there's any context to where I am. I mean, you know, just a pure solid background and like just a bunch of platforms everywhere.

40:44 I mean, I guess in, in each, not in each area, but you know, they kind of blow their load early with the clouds and making everything bouncy. And then there's like an underwater level where everything is sort of slow and floaty. And then there's a couple sections where there's just platforms that pass gas and fart kind of, so that when you land on them, it gets a little weird.

41:09 Uh, and some of them have other hazards that are just floating around. Like they do feel different, but I do understand what you're saying where like aside from affecting just base movement, um, there really isn't anything else going on. They're very placid.

41:28 Yeah. And I guess I'd say that they, they feel different from each other as in like the, the platforms in the first level feel different from the platforms in the second level. But yeah, the second level you're in the cloud level. Like I have never, I don't really ever like have like bearings. I'm like, Oh, this is where I am in this level. It's just all cloud everywhere, you know? And it's just like tons of platforms everywhere. So I never, you know, I'm trying to think like, like, like, like Fexanadu, obviously a different kind of game, but that's also like a lot of platforms. But I always feel like there's a sense of like landscape to it or, or like G geography,

42:00 I guess. Whereas this is just like, yeah, there's a bunch of shit everywhere. Jump from one to the next. And like, uh, you know, once in a while there's a room or there's like a little landmark, but like, I just feel like I'm always like, I guess I'll just jump in this direction and see if something's up here. Can we talk about the continue system? I feel like, you know, I mentioned it at the top of the episode, but it's worth discussing just to, you know, we've seen it both ways on the NES. Yeah. So in Wizards and Warriors one, there was unlimited continues. You never had to worry about a game over screen.

42:29 This one chose to abandon that. And if you, uh, die a certain amount of times it's game over and you can always use your password to get back. But do you feel like that was the right step? Uh, maybe an unnecessary step. Did it matter because other games always have, uh, a certain amount of continues before you die, including games like Super Mario Brothers?

42:53 I think it was necessary, uh, to get rid of this unlimited continues thing just so that there'd be some kind of stakes, uh, as opposed to just like a modern game where it's just like, Oh, uh, the most recent, most recent checkpoint was 30 seconds ago. Don't worry about it. Um, but I don't think that it should have, uh, made it so that no matter if you had continues, it got rid of them on the last level cause that it does that.

43:22 And that's like, if you were good enough to, to not have to use your continues and to get to ice, fire, mountain, whatever the hell, I think you should be able to keep them. Yeah. I thought that that was weird. I didn't know that there was a certain amount of continues that you would eventually run out if you use too many of them. But I did notice because I told you guys already how I, um, had to farm for magic. Forever at the end of that third level. And then I got to the fourth level, the purple level. And apparently there are no continues. And then I died and it was like game over. And I was like, Oh, okay. Well I've been so far conditioned to think that I'm allowed to continue.

44:00 Uh, I think it says in the manual. Yeah. You get to, yeah, I didn't, uh, read that. Um, so, but still, I thought it was weird to like, to have it for some of the game and then take it away. Yeah. So it was like, they, you know, like I, I did think that was weird. And I do agree that a game like this needs to have like higher stakes, but I think that the stakes should be like when you die, you start at the beginning of the level or something. Not that like in this game you die and you start exactly where you were. Once you run out of all your lives, you continue and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you continue, you, Oh, you continue. You do start at the beginning of the level, right?

44:37 Uh, yes, no. Yeah. Uh, I, I think it also is like where you had your password. No. Uh, no, I mean, I don't think you need to. Oh, I know what you're saying. Sorry. Yeah. I get it. When you can, when you continue. Yeah. If you have like two continues left where you continue from. Right. Um, but I think that as long as, you know, as long as the password system is intact, then it's okay to, to say like, Oh yeah, once you lose all your lives, it's game over. And then you've got to, you know, basically reload your game from the last time you got your password. I mean, that is, that feels like a significant and fair consequence.

45:18 Although I don't think you get to keep everything with the password. Uh, I believe like money and obviously score and some items that you acquired, uh, are like out. If you use the password, those things aren't stored in the password. It's more so just like wherever you are. Yeah. It's just, yeah. Like what, what room you were in. Right. I mean, you know, I guess that maybe saved them from having one of those like really long passwords, but, uh, but it is weird to me because it's like, I mean, the point of the password isn't only so that like, if you die, you're, you're safe. But also like, I would think the point of the password is so you don't have to play the whole game in one sitting.

45:56 So like, if you're being punished for like stopping for and coming back to it the next day, that's kind of annoying. And Sean, you just talked about the final level, removing your continues. Uh, that just feels like something that the developers did to be cruel. It doesn't quite seem like a bug. It just seems that they were trying to figure out a way to make the end of the game even harder. And so they decided at this point, you just lose all your continues. And it's probably not too big of a deal. Cause again, the password can always just bring you back to the ice fire mountain.

46:26 But if you, if you're struggling in that particular level, it's one of those things where it's just all right now just get good. Yeah. Uh, didn't Mega Man do something similar? Like once you went to the castle thing, like it sort of reset the way that progression works. I, yep. It's the Wiley stages. Wiley. I didn't, I didn't like it then. I don't like it now. Uh, it just, it just seems like, yeah, overcomplicating challenge. Like it's already challenging. There's already continue system. They're already finite. Just keep it that way.

47:10 On the sequels and spinoff side, we have wizards and warriors three, uh, also on the NES. Who's excited to complete the trilogy? I mean, well, we'll see. I, I'm not, I don't hate the idea. Yeah. The, uh, third one is called wizards and warriors three colon Kuros colon visions of power. So they've really gone. Uh, they've lost their damn minds here. Cause following the, uh, the naming scheme of the second one, it should have been visions of power wizards and warriors three colon Kuros or three wizards, three warriors. Tokyo drift. Sure. Yeah. Why not? Uh, no Fabio on the third one either, but we'll get into all that stuff when we play this game in March of 1992.

48:00 It's pretty far from now. Uh, 30 or something, right? Yeah. Who could, who could really say at that point? Um, you know, but I'm sure we're doing the show still and, uh, shout out to 2030 versions of us who are listening to this episode to get their bearings. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And also I mentioned this on the wizards and warriors episode, but wizards and warriors X, uh, is on game boy. And that came out actually before wizards and warriors three. So that probably explains the gap X in terms. Yeah. Well, you know, I made that joke on that episode too, Sean. Uh, so you should probably go back and listen to that episode along with the fans. But I made that joke cause I was like, yeah, we got wizard warriors. One, two, three, and 10.

48:44 Damn. I'm sure I reacted to it. What happened to four through nine? What else did we say in that episode, Mike? Insert the whole episode here. Yeah. We've got something much more important to insert into this episode. And that is the essential games list.

49:04 Sean, your vote. I've, I've been pretty tough on this game and I usually am. Uh, on every single game that I have any kind of like difficulty with. Uh, but I don't hate this game. I, I think that it's very flawed, but, uh, the moment to moment action while frustrating, like it, this felt like a more holistic experience in terms of like the adventure action adventure, uh, genre, then something like say battle for Olympus, which at every moment I just felt lost. Whereas I think with the sort of simplification where like, yeah, you're kind of just like poking around.

49:48 It, they're, they're more like self-contained smaller areas to poke around. I kind of dug that. I appreciated the little touchstones of the ends to give you, give yourself a breather and to gamble. Um, and I think the, the art's pretty charming. Uh, the, the animal spirit guides are hilarious for some reason. Um, and it's just such a quirky game with the, like, they just didn't, they didn't see the wobbly sword as a problem. So they just didn't fix it. And it's almost like that's a pro. I don't, I don't know. Uh, but I mean, I'm not going to put this on the essential games list. I, I think it's, I think it's cute. So it's like maybe a play it. It definitely, uh, definitely a game I will remember.

50:50 All right. I like that. I can, I can boogie with that. Joe, can you boogie with that? Yeah, I can boogie. Uh, sure. I'll say a couple of good things about this game too. I think that it has good music. Um, I do think that it moves really well. We, we didn't talk about that. I think that like, even though there's like some weird mechanics to it, I think that the actual feel of the movement is better than a lot of games on the NES where it doesn't feel super floaty or stiff.

51:18 Um, but, and we, and I was pretty hard on this game too, but, but I do think I sort of hate this game. Like I really, I really just felt frustrated most of the time. Um, I felt lost in a way that like, I wasn't that interested in finding where I need to go because it just something about it just felt kind of bland to me, even though the environments are pretty and whatnot. Like it just felt like, I, so you, you, Sean, you compared it to battle of Olympus. I would take that game over this any, any day because I felt like there was just more like contact. I mean, and I'm talking, I know it's a different type of game, but like, I'm talking just as far as the exploration of it.

51:59 Like there just felt to be more context to where I am. And I was like, Oh, now I'm in this city. Now, like I got, I got my bearings. I got to like learn the land in that game. In this game, I just felt like I was just moving to like hope to find the next thing and, and, and not die. There was never a break.

52:16 I mean, that's not true. Later on in the, in the game, there was sort of some breaks where like there weren't that many enemies, but like they threw you into the first two or three levels where it's just like you. You can't do anything without like, it's all, everything almost felt like I was just like hoping to not die because I felt like I had so little like agency over, over fighting.

52:33 So like, I know that these games, Wizards and Warriors, I like have like a fouling. Like I, like I had heard of them. I know that they're like maybe for better. I don't know if they're considered great games, but I know that they were like relatively popular. So maybe that's why I'm looking at it with like a little more harsher lens because I was expecting something more. And admittedly, I had mostly forgotten about the first Wizards and Warriors, but Warsers and Warriors by the time we played this one.

52:56 So when I kind of jumped into it, I was, it was mostly just disappointment in my opinion. So I'm going to say not essential. If I can just, sorry, if I could just respond real quick to, to, to Joe's point about the, uh, the exploration and getting lost. Okay, but you can't change your vote. I'm not. I'm sure I changed his mind. No, no, no. I would say like, just again, to compare this to specifically, uh, battle for Olympus getting lost in battle for Olympus kind of felt like a night that you're blackout drunk. And every time you sort of like change whatever screen you're on, it's just like, wait, how the hell did I get here?

53:34 Like, why, why am I in a city now? I was just in a forest and there was no context that I was going into a city. Whereas in this, like maybe just the smooth scrolling and the fact that I guess I can keep a better mental map when it all feels like one area, even though it all kind of looks samey within that area. I can at least like kind of gauge where I am in the cardinal directions of things.

54:00 That's why I thought like it was, it was easier for me, but that's, that's all. Yeah, I get what you're saying too. I mean, it's not like this game was trying to do the same thing battle for Olympus was doing anyways, but yeah, but yeah. And I, you know, and I'll full disclosure, I played both of these games fully with a guide because I had no idea what to do in either of them without the guide. So I guess it's like from that perspective with the guide, I, it, it helped with battle for Olympus. And with this, I was still just like, this is just not fun.

54:29 All right. And I will just add that it's interesting that you guys didn't go back to wizards and warriors one, not because you have to, but I just feel like with sequels on the NES in general, we've had a pretty bad run of things, especially if you ask like a certain kind of player, like the kind of people who don't like super Mario brothers too, which was the game we voted the best of 88. So it doesn't apply to us, but you know, I'm just thinking like in general, sequels usually are like something exciting in video games, especially nowadays. Like that's all the rage for E3 announcements or it's all there is.

55:04 Right. Yeah. It's like, okay, I can't wait till they make the next version of this. I mean, people were getting excited about breath of the wild too, and that's a sequel to a franchise that always gets sequels, right? It's like, it's a sequel within a sequel.

55:16 So all that to say, like when I was just thinking about like, all right, well, what was wizards and warriors one? Like, and I played wizards and warriors two first before going back to one. And I was shocked at the downgrade that we got here. And it makes so much more sense. Now, when I look at the fact that Zippo games was given the keys here to, to make the sequel to a game that rare went with the first time around, I'm not saying wizards and warriors one should be like relooked at. For the essential games list or anything.

55:45 I just found the concept and maybe the significantly easier gameplay approach, just more refreshing than anything wizards and warriors two is doing here. I agree with every point you guys made in favor of it. But I would also just add that if they found a way to make this game easier, the, the jumping mechanics are fun.

56:07 The, uh, the enemy designs are fine. It's just the, the amount of difficulty that they throw at it. And the frustration that comes with that just made me keep thinking like, how much more do I have to play to complete it for like the podcast? Like to have enough information going. And I feel like that was more because of the difficulty and less to do with particular game design choices. Overall though, I would take wizards and warriors one any day of the week. Even Tuesday.

56:37 Right. Cause that would be a day that you would usually reserve for sequels. Cause that has two in it. Yes. Just, just checking. Uh, not a sequel, but next week we'll be playing Knight Rider. Could be a, could be a sequel. Is every episode of the podcast a sequel to the last episode? I'd say so. Yeah. That's actually what, yeah, that's true. In the same way that like an episode of a television show, like two, three, four, that's all sequel to the pilot. Right. Knight Rider, the game is probably a sequel to the TV show. Yeah. We should just call this episode 10 yard fight 258 or whatever we're on.

57:15 No comment. But I do have a comment about something else. What's that? Okay, fine. No, thank you for playing ball, Sean. Uh, we have a nostalgia bites episode coming up too. It's star luster. It's a, I believe a shmup, but, uh, that's only cause it's star in the title. I'm just guessing that. So if you love shmups and you're like, Hey, they only cover like 60 shmups so far on the regular podcast. Let me, uh, give them some money to hear these bites episodes.

57:44 Remember that, uh, there's a good reason for that. And that's not just to give us money. It's to, uh, explore the Famicom library with us. And that's where star luster is the only available on the Famicom. So that's why we were covering it over there instead of, uh, on the main feed. When you do that, you'll also get access to the, uh, now eight other episodes and some cool bonus content that you're not going to expect. I'll tell you that much. We're giving out stickers like a year ago. Was anybody expecting stickers?

58:14 You'll have a all access pass to all of my previous, uh, grocery shopping lists. Yeah. You're still working on that, right? I am still working on that, but eventually you'll have a year's worth of grocery shopping. Which is just good from the sense that not that you should take those lists to the grocery store and grab the items yourself, but to kind of put together like, Oh, what was he making? Yeah. Like a day. What was he going to do with all that? I thought that you can use it like, Oh, now you can finally eat like Sean. And it's like, it's like, that's the draw. Like this is what Sean eats. Now you can eat just like him. A lot of frozen dinners.

59:14 Did you have to read trademark? No, I did it on purpose because it's like that, you know, it feels weird to say wizards and warriors twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.