165 · Ultima Exodus

• This is the ultimate Role Playing Fantasy Game
• Introductions
  • The day has come for that RPG thing we been talking about, but it’s a WRPG
  • Back of the Box says 5 year Lithium Battery
• Overview
  • Dungeon and Dragons finally comes to the NES. Make a team of 4 across different races and jobs, traverse the world and complete quests as your characters grow.
• This is NOT Ultima 3 PC
  • Modified graphics and a new soundtrack.
  • Considerable alterations to gameplay.
  • Significantly expanded dialogue.
  • New menu interface.
  • Only a small instruction booklet rather than the map and manuals.
  • Added endgame sequence after defeating Exodus.
• Gameplay
  • Build your team
    • Sean
    • Joe
    • Human-Ranger | Elf Thief | | Elf lark | Fuzzy Wizard
  • Combat
    • Turn-Based takes a new meaning
    • Should be Movement AND attack to make this all happen a little faster
    • This is obviously where team variety matters most, but there’s some setbacks too
    • MAGIC
      • In and out of combat
    • A surprisingly low amount of unique enemies???
    • UNDEAD is the OP spell in the early game
  • NPCs
  • Exploration
    • Does Questing make things obvious?
    • The game is so overwhelming at the top that I kind of liked just grinding enemies and exploring the area near town
    • Moon-Gates
      • In the upper left-hand corner of the screen is a display detailing the cycles of the two moons that hang over Sosaria. Depending on their state, magical portals known as "moon-gates" will appear on various locations of the map
    • Ambrosia
  • Caves/Dungeons
    • Navigation
    • Why couldn’t this be 2d?
    • Dungeons are dark and will require the constant use of spells and torches
  • Management
    • Give Blood and Heal
      • Give a lot of blood to the Hospitals in Lord British Castle or in Moon, and then heal while traveling. Give blood again as soon as all the party is in full health.
    • Food
    • Gold
      • Did you get enough at the start of the game?
  • Menus
• Plot
  • The game is named for its chief villain, Exodus, a creation of Minax and Mondain that the series later describes as neither human nor machine. Although a demonic figure appears on the cover of the game, Exodus turns out to something like a computer (possibly an artificial intelligence) and to defeat him the player has to acquire four magic (punch)cards and insert them into the mainframe in a specific order.
  • Fight the floor - right before Exodus
• Sequels and Spinoffs
  • There are 9 NUMBERED Ultima games (7 was split in 2 parts)
    • The last was released in 1999
  • Ultima Online
    • Lord British was Garriott's in-game alter ego, who was killed during an in-game appearance at Ultima Online's beta test on August 9, 1997. During a server population stress test, a player character known as Rainz cast the "fire field" spell, killing Lord British.
    • The creators of the game had no idea that the player base would love to kill, not just the evil creatures like bears and wolves, but also the innocent creatures.
  • 2 Cancelled MMO games later and it’s dead
• EGL
• Next week - Dance Aerobics

Auto-generated transcript. Each paragraph starts with its timestamp. Speakers are not identified.

00:00 Ultima Exodus. This is the ultimate role-playing fantasy game.

00:20 And welcome to NEStalgia, a chronological exploration of every NES game released in North America. I'm Mike. I'm Sean. And I'm Joe. The day has come. We have been talking about it for a long time on this show. An RPG, a real one if you will, is finally here. It's a WRPG, not a JRPG, but I think we can all feel satisfied, right? That's interesting. I've never heard that term before.

00:51 Just Western RPG? Yeah, Western RPGs. I think there's even debate if this is a CRPG computer. I'll call it, we'll call it a console port of a CRPG. I like that. Okay. I think of like WRPGs, the first thing that comes to my head is like Fallout, you know? That like, you would not, it's definitely an RPG, but you wouldn't experience anything Final Fantasy-like in Fallout. True. Yeah. I guess the terms are interchangeable. I've always heard it just Western RPG. I've never actually heard it abbreviated like that, but I guess it makes sense if we have JRPGs. Yeah. But yeah, it's exciting to have something that's not just like a game that has some RPG elements now. Like this is an RPG, like make no mistake.

01:34 And so we're really, you know, entering new territory here on how to do a show where a game is massive. You know, I think so many times the games that we review can boil, be boiled down into like what are today's mini games. But this is a full, like 20 hour plus game with so many nuances. And as Sean mentioned, is really like a computer game that then got like ported to the NES. So how we deal with this is just going to be a learning experience for everybody. And just bear with us through this. So this way, when we do some better RPGs that like people know about, like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, we'll, we'll find our footing. So the ultimate exit is I'm officially declaring this a test episode. What do you guys think about that?

02:19 I agree. I mean, when we can spend like, I don't know if it was like 30, 40 or 50 minutes on Popeye, which is basically like doing two things for maybe 15 minutes before you get sick of it.

02:35 And then this in the same, in the same show, I hope that we don't do it for five hours, but let's just see where we take it. Now, you know, the length of the game is definitely something worth talking about. And technically, right? Like the great arcade games of the NES, you could invest more than 20 hours into those games. I'm not sure how many people are doing that today. But I'm sure there are kids who played 20 plus hours of Donkey Kong if they loved Donkey Kong.

03:01 Sure. But, but that kind of thing, I think what the difference is, is that kind of thing is like, there's the gameplay loop is, is more like condensed. It's like, you're doing the one thing, you're trying to get better at that one skill. This is like, I mean, it still has a gameplay loop, but it's just like a sprawling adventure. You know, you're, you're, it's closer to the Legend of Zelda in that sense, I think, where it's like, you're exploring and you're trying to get, you know, get new weapons and armor. And in this case, level up and whatnot. It's constantly new information being thrown at you. You can't just continue to do the same thing over and over again.

03:39 It's not so much a test of skill as it is a test of preparation and perseverance through grind. And yeah, it's a completely different experience. And so given the extreme length of this NES game, you know, nowhere near as long as games today can be, but given that this is a long NES game, I, my first concern with just the game in general happens right on the very back of the box. You know, you're reading about this great story and you're going on an adventure and look at all these cool features. And one of those cool features is that, and it's advertised on the back of the box, it advertises a five-year lithium battery.

04:21 Five years isn't really going to do you much good 30 years later. So what do you think here? What do you think? Like, anybody got a working copy with the original lithium battery still? Or does everybody's saves from 1989 are like gone now? Oh, they're gone. Like, uh... Yeah. But I also think that if I was buying this game as, like, a teenager in 89, I would have thought that five years was plenty.

04:50 You know, you don't really think too far ahead when you're that young. So... Yeah, and also, like, I feel like the, just developers and stuff weren't thinking about, like,

05:00 weren't thinking about, like, oh, what's the legacy of this game going to be in 2021? You know, or anything like that. Whereas, like, now, I feel like we're more accustomed to, like, nostalgia and, like, people look for their old, you know, Gen 2 Pokemon games and realize that they don't work anymore. And I feel like now a developer might think about something like that. But, like, back then, it was just like, okay, we'll release this, we'll release Ultima 4 next year, and, you know, we'll never think about this again. Well, even your own saves, though, right, gentlemen? Like, how often do you get very precious about your own save files only to realize that you never have checked in on them again?

05:36 Oh, yeah, PS1 era, maybe even PS2 era. I've definitely got some, like, Final Fantasy 7 and 8 saves that, like, I definitely have a save in Final Fantasy 7 where I got, like, this really weird situation to occur. But, like, you know, you have to move on from that. So, yes, I just made a copy for it. You know? Yeah, I remember... I haven't looked at it.

05:59 Funnily enough, in Final Fantasy 8, I used to love that game. And any time I would get to, like, a cool cutscene or an interesting part that I really liked, I would save it in a different save slot after that. So I'd always have all of those. Like, if I ever want to go back and play this part, I can go do that. It's one of the greatest hits. Never did. Never did that. But I always had it in case I wanted to go back and play, like, an earlier part in my playthrough.

06:22 I did something like that with Kingdom Hearts, the original Kingdom Hearts, because it gives you 99 save files. I would save before every boss with the idea that, like, oh, now when I'm done with this game, I can have, like, a boss rush where I can just select the save file I want and battle those bosses. And I will tell you, from experience, I never did that. I never went back and loaded up any of those saves and fought any of those bosses again. Maybe, like, one or two. But for the most part, that's how my save systems work.

06:50 And I think that's important to start this discussion about Ultima with, because ultimately, the games that you play, though, like, they only matter while you're playing them. And the memories that you make during them, not these, like, 100% completions where you, like, strictly follow a guide and do everything and then have this, like, perfect save file. Well, because at the end of the day, like, you don't track your save files across your lifetime. Like, I cannot tell you what's going on with my, you know, earliest video games.

07:23 I don't know what the save files look like for those games. And I don't care because I have those memories instead. So when you're going on a big journey like Ultima Exodus, the five-year lithium battery probably doesn't even matter that much in the grand scheme of things. But it also just doesn't matter at all after you're done with the game. Like, the important part is playing through the game and doing what you do with it, not doing it for the sake of completion.

07:50 I mostly agree, but I will say that there are some games when it is, like, when I've completed a game or when I've maxed out a level, which I've only done in, you know, maybe, like, Kingdom Hearts or, like, if I've gotten a really high level in any other game or something. I do like to once in a while, like, go jump into, like, my level 99 file of Kingdom Hearts because I don't want to get, I don't want to grind to level 99 again. But it's fun to kind of explore things as a level 99 character again. Like, I like to keep that stuff, you know, as a little trophy. I don't know. I could also see it.

08:23 I remember I kept a file in Red Dead before you get kind of railroaded for the rest of the game just so that, like, you know, you have that file to go and dick around and do cowboy shit if you ever want to return to it. So going back to that idea, I think I have actually come back. Yeah. So am I wrong to think, like, this is 1989, you know, it's the first RPG truly on the system.

08:52 Dungeons and Dragons is not, you know, it's only tabletop, paper, and pen. And this is, like, Dungeons and Dragons coming to the NES. Like, this is kind of a big deal for, you know, Dungeons and Dragons fans, role-playing fans, a new way to play tabletop games because now it's, like, the game is the game master, the dungeon master who handles, like, so much of the world building for you. And, yeah, these things existed on Apple II and Commodore 64 for, like, a really long time before this.

09:26 But the NES is so famous because it introduced an entire new generation to video gaming, you know? Like, they weren't – not every family had an Apple II and then also went to, like, these stores and bought these games. So, really, like, a lot of people were only gaming on the NES. So this is an eye-opening moment for a lot of people just in terms of, like, what's possible in terms of storytelling and really feeling like you're going on an adventure inside of a video game. Something where everything's programmed for you.

10:01 Yeah, I'm actually very surprised as somebody who didn't really know the history of RPGs on the NES. Like, yeah, I knew about Final Fantasy and, yeah, I had heard of Dragon Quest slash Warrior. But I did not think that the first RPG that we'd get on the NES isn't, like, that classic JRPG style, but is this sort of Western CRPG that isn't, like, a perfect one-to-one of D&D systems. But it's much closer than any JRPG.

10:39 And I always just thought that it would be kind of simplified because I do kind of consider JRPGs to be simplified. So, yeah, in 1989, people are getting, like – they've got a food system and there's, like – you're keeping track of the wind and the moon cycles. And, like, this is just so much information that, like, that's just what RPGs were.

11:03 I'm kind of going off the rails here if you want to save me. Yeah, no, I'll save you for a second because I think you made – I think you did make one very strong point, though, of, like, it's surprising that this is the first one to come.

11:14 And that's true, right? Like, you would think a Japanese developer, because they did make those games in 86, 87, like, they were totally available. They just weren't translated and brought over to the West. And I think that's because the NES, by Nintendo of America's standards, was set up to be this, like, play your arcade games at home, buy this wacky dance pad, shoot ducks. You know, like, they weren't really selling the complications that a game like Ultima or even, you know, Final Fantasy would offer you.

11:48 They were kind of, like, saying, well, we don't really know if that audience would play these kinds of games on our systems because of the limitations of an NES against an Apple II. You know, like, I don't think you're going to be able to sell the same people that play pen and paper to be like, oh, well, this is, like, just as good as your imagination and all the things that you can possibly control via pen and paper. Like, we're going to be able to do all that on the NES and you're going to love it. Like, maybe they weren't sold on that idea. You're going to love it. You little bitch.

12:28 I'm sure that was the actual conversation in the execs room. I think that was their, like, marketing campaign. It was, like, their commercial.

12:36 And this is Ultima Exodus, not Ultima 3 Exodus. And I think that's the right move for what it's worth. I always have an opinion on titles. That's very confusing to release the third Ultima game and call it Ultima 3 and pretend, like, you know, well, 1 and 2, you have to go buy other systems that we don't have. Yeah. And also, like, this is your first time experiencing this and you want to go on an adventure. Do I need to play 1 and 2 to understand 3? Like, I think that was the right move to remove all that. But it's also not really Ultima 3 at the end of the day.

13:09 This is a whole new soundtrack. The graphics are modified completely for the NES. Whereas there's considerable alterations to even, like, the gameplay in terms of how long the game is and what you can do inside of it.

13:20 They expanded a lot of dialogue to be more clear and direct about what to do. And I think, you know, in the computer version, the biggest changer probably is that in the computer version, you use a keyboard to control all your different menus and bring up different things. There is no NES keyboard peripheral. So they had to figure out a way to put everything that you need in menus in one particular menu that you can then shuffle through to enter other menus.

13:48 I know I said menus a lot there. But the idea basically just being that... Oh, yeah. This game has a lot of menus. Yeah. They had to figure out a way to cram all these menus into one bigger menu. And it kind of works like how... And this is the simplest explanation I can think of. But it works like Pokemon in that sense of, like, you hit the start button and every menu option that you'll ever need in the game pulls up. It's very similar to that.

14:12 And I think that's the right call over hitting, like, F or G or H. You know? Like, we don't need all those keys. Yeah, definitely. And I think the difference there is that, like, something like Pokemon, though, the menu is, like... It's things that you want to do that are not on, like, the main field. You know what I mean? Like, you want to go into your items or you want to go look at your Pokemon or look at your stats. Whereas this, it's like, if you want to talk to someone, you open up a menu and you select the talk option. Yeah, that's something... And if you want to, you know, anything. If you want to fight, you open up the menu and you click fight and then a battle will start, you know, if you're in front of someone that you can fight.

14:50 Yeah, that's something that I think... I mean, it's definitely a sign of its age and of its time. But I definitely think that a lot of these things could have been context-based. Like, no one's going to want to fight a treasure chest. You're going to want to open it. Most people aren't going to try and fight a townsperson. They're probably going to want to talk to them. And I feel like every other, like, lesser action could have been put in those menus.

15:21 But, yeah, it's definitely just a sign of, like, this very early realm of RPG gaming. So I get it. Yeah, and just the fact that it's... It's not a port, you know. It's because they're trying to... They're like, okay, we have all these commands that you do on the keyboard. Well, let's just put them all on a menu. And they, like, don't think more about it as to, like, well, can we go even further and make it context? Can we streamline this? Yeah. But although I guess now thinking of that, they probably could have streamlined it even on the keyboard version and made it like... Yeah. You're talking to this person because he's a person you would talk to.

16:00 And that's one thing I struggle with when I think about how to talk about this game is who's it really for here, you know? And it's not for the usual NES audience. And so I kind of say, like, how much of this is, you know, programming code that they don't want to change and they don't want to work with? So, yes, you can fight the treasure chest and you can choose to talk to nothing and they'll tell you no one's there, right?

16:27 Like, we don't need those things. But how much of that is programming changes that they don't want to make? And how much of it is, like, the freedom to do whatever it is that you want to do, you know? That, like, the fight is a command and an active choice that you make rather than running into a battle or, like, pressing the A button to talk. It's like, no, you choose to talk to that person because you can also choose to fight every townsperson if you want.

16:53 True. Like, I think, like, there's a decision here. And that's a whole other, like, conversation that we'll have later on about, you know, did they make this game for the right audience?

17:03 But here, and just to start things off, I'd argue that they're making this game so obtuse on purpose, as weird as that sounds. Like, they're giving you a lot of control and a lot of things that don't necessarily matter on purpose to show you how much this is your story and your world. True. One thing I'll say just to sort of clarify my opinion, I think you should still be able to fight whoever the hell you want. But maybe, like, if you just press, like, the B button or the A button on the field, it'll talk. And then you can go into the menu and choose to fight if you want. Just to, like, make that a little bit easier. But no, I do totally get what you're saying there. That this is about your story and every action should be your own.

17:54 Yeah, it's like a quality of life versus, like, full immersion. You know, like, they've got to find that balance of, like, well, it's just easier to do this because you'll probably mostly want to just talk to townspeople. But it's more immersive if you know, like, I could fight these townspeople if I want and get attacked by the guards and, you know, that whole thing. But, Joe, can you think of an example? And this is tough because the game is so massive. But can you think of an example where they chose quality of life over the harder option? No, I mean, yeah, you're right. I mean, I agree. I think that, like, a lot of this game could use some quality of life improvements. But it's just, like, it's an early example of its kind, you know.

18:57 I mean, yeah, you're right. All right. So let's get into a little bit of the meat and potatoes here, all right? You know, this is a game where you make a team of four across different races and different jobs. You're traversing their world. You complete quests to collect key items to try to take down this thing known as Exodus.

19:40 And your characters grow all the while. They level up. And leveling up works a little different than in usual games. But most of the RPG tropes are there, so we're not going to explain everything here. I want to hear the teams that were created because there's so many choices here. You choose your job and your race right off the bat. And then you're, like, stuck with that character. There are some pre-made ones. But I'm just curious to hear everybody's loadouts. So, Sean, let's start with you. What was your team?

20:10 So, my team, I didn't read any, like, any stuff that was just, like, here's the min-max team. So, my team was Chaz the fighter, human fighter. He was based off of a D&D character I once played. Then there's Syln, the elf cleric, who was another character that I played with at one point. Rag, I'm sorry, Rags the dwarf something or other. I don't remember what he was. He was a tank, though.

20:47 And, oh, man, I forgot my wizard's name. But I had a fuzzy wizard named Marty. His name was Marty. Marty. What a name to forget. Yeah. Marty Marty. I thought it was going to be something complicated like a wizard-esque. No, no. But, yeah, and I actually saw that there were a bunch of other, like, slots to make more characters. And I was just like, I want to kind of just make these four.

21:14 They weren't the most optimized, but they were my guys. And if you could amuse us for a little bit here, you don't have to take us on your journey or explain story points to anybody here. But what did you think about your team synergy? You know, like, did the wizard do all of the, like, damage on the battlefield? Who was your ace? Yes. So I always, I mean, so a lot of this comes down to what I think of the battle system, which we'll get into later, obviously. But it ended up being, in the early game at least, that it's just the cleric and the wizard that are really going to carry you for a while.

21:57 Because magic is just better. And if you have, like, a full magic team, you're going to do really well in this game. But I was trying to go with, like, a more classic D&D fantasy lineup.

22:10 And so it was really just two guys carrying us for a bit until later when some of those classes sort of come into their own. Okay. I like that. And just vague enough to let us explore more later. Joe, your team. So I'm going to try and remember exactly what their races were. I don't remember exactly. And also, I'll say that I did, I pretty much filled up every slot on that. I spent a lot of time on the character customization. And I switched out a little bit until I landed on the party I finally used in the end. So the party I finally used in the end was a human ranger, a cleric, which I believe was a Bobbit?

22:54 Mm-hmm. A Bobbit. A Alchemist, which I think was, oh, shit. I think was probably a Fuzzy, which is such a stupid name. How was the Alchemist? You know, I... The Alchemist was, like, the one that I was interested in but I didn't play with. I liked him a lot at first because at first I didn't really have anyone that was kind of fulfilling the... I read a lot of guides, too. So I was trying to come up with, like, a really balanced team based on that. So I had so many that I kept making and switching out. Because there's actually, like, as much as I was reading different guides, there's not a lot of, like, variety of information on this game online.

23:32 So I switched out a lot. But the Alchemist... I had started with a wizard but then I was like, I don't really have a good thief that apparently, like, I... You know, I was realizing I needed more and more to open chests and to avoid traps to have, like, high dexterity. So I switched to the Alchemist because he also has high dexterity and, like, kind of fits the build of, like, a wizard and a thief.

23:54 But later in the game, I was really missing the wizard. I wished that I had the wizard by the end. But he was good for most of the game when I was just grinding and stuff. And then my final person was a Lark, which I believe was... I don't remember the race of the Lark. Probably something that had high strength or high intelligence. I can't remember, though. Yeah. So you switched the wizard out for the Lark? I switched the lizard out... The lizard. I switched the wizard out for the Alchemist. Got it. But yeah, I had other parties throughout and, you know, I used one for a while and then switched to a totally nude party and we'll probably get into that later. It's like an adventure by committee.

24:41 Yes, exactly. And I really did have the whole thing filled out. I was like, I'll pick these couple people now and I'll pick those couple people. And I sort of used one party to kind of exploit the game, which was another little strategy I read about, which I think made the game much more enjoyable than it would have been if I didn't. Sure thing.

25:01 All right. And then as for me, Joe, I'm right with you. I chose the human ranger. I think the ranger was the most fun I had because it's the all-around character. You know, there's some spells. There's some ranged attacks. There's just a lot of practical use in combat for the ranger. And, you know, I think mixing close combat with ranged combat in a game like this is as obvious as that might sound. It just also makes for a more enjoyable playthrough rather than having to approach all your enemies and get real close to them and keep attacking and them attacking you. I liked keeping my distances from afar.

25:44 So I had the human ranger, an elf thief. Where's his name? I wasn't going to go thief. But apparently the thief is like pretty necessary, as Joe was describing for the alchemist, like pretty necessary in terms of dexterity and for unlocking treasure chests and stuff like that. Still waiting for a name for these guys.

26:03 Oh, sorry. I think for personal disclosure, I can't disclose the names because I use real people's names. And they'll, you know, I always do this in RPGs. I always name them after real people. So I don't want to name anybody, you know. Wow. Okay. I still remember when the character named after me in Final Fantasy 2 just left on like the first scene of the game. And then turned out to be the bad guy. And then not even in the party for the whole game. People take it personally. I had an elf lark and a fuzzy wizard, which I feel comfortable disclosing. I named the wizard after our audio producer, Chris.

26:40 So he's a known wizard in the D&D world. So I figured why not bring him into my game? And to be honest, like I love the wizard in this game. I probably love just magic casters in general in RPGs. So if you notice, between the ranger, the lark, and the wizard, I had a good time with spells and stuff like that. But also the thief was really useful for acquiring necessary gold and weapons and stuff that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get. So even though I kept the thief out of combat for the most part because close combat with the thief was kind of, you know, you're like praying that he doesn't take that much damage. And I think you can just equip him with a bunch of daggers and just have him keep throwing those and then he's kind of arranged.

27:32 But that would be very expensive. That would be a very expensive decision to go through. So I just kind of had the wizard and the ranger take care of everything on the battlefield. And it seemed to work really well for me. It's interesting that you created a thief for both of you because when I was pouring through those guides and like, you know, let's plays to kind of get a handle on things,

27:54 it was shown to me that I can't remember if it's a cleric or a wizard spell, but there is an open spell that you don't really need. I used the open spell almost every time I opened anything. I didn't make a thief. I made an alchemist. Oh, yes. If you would at least help me avoid traps in dungeons. Absolutely. All right. But I pretty quickly was like, okay, I don't need to ever open anything outside of using the open spell.

28:21 And I was just never playing with anybody else. I wasn't doing Joe's cheating route. Not that he was cheating, but he was cheating on his characters. Well, you called it the cheating, yeah. No, no, he was cheating on his characters. Wait, what was I cheating? I was cheating. I mean, the exploit was cheating, but you're supposed to create a bunch of characters. And I know what you're saying, Mike. I know what you're saying, Mike.

28:39 I'm attacking Sean. I just can't do that, you know? Like, whether it's Final Fantasy XII where you have a very large party or Ultima Exodus or even Pokemon. Like, the six Pokemon I get, that's the game, okay? They're not getting swapped out. That's the – you know, I can't throw them in a computer jail. I do once in a while. I like to play a Pokemon where I, like – all right, I've got – where I play with 12 Pokemon and I swap out when I want. I don't know. It just – I actually like to play with teams of three, but that's a whole other episode.

29:08 Anyway. I play with teams of one. I think the point here, even though Sean is right, my strategy probably was, like, the least optimal. I just chose who I liked. The idea that we can each have very different teams and go out there on an adventure and have varying degrees of success as well is a really cool feature in this game.

29:30 that there's so many jobs and so many races. And, yeah, like, the races are only useful for, like, stat boosts, I think. Some are, like, more optimal for certain characters. Yeah, there's no other use of that information in the game. So it's, like, that's not too cool, but it's, you know, it's, like, enough permutations to make an equation where everybody picks something differently. And that's exciting. Yeah. For replayability, though, too. It's also good for the theater of the mind. Like, you know, when you're imagining what's actually happening here, like, that's your fuzzy guy. You know? I don't know what a fuzzy looks like, but he's a fuzzy.

30:05 It just looks like a regular guy or girl. I can't remember. Yeah, I was going to say, it doesn't look like the thing from Super Mario World. Those black guys that ruin your day and they're on strings. Are they called fuzzies? Yeah, I think they're called fuzzies. Yeah, World was not my game. It's okay. I don't know. What? There's just a couple, like, constantly seeing it. I've just never heard anybody say World's not their game. I love World. Super Mario 3 was my game. I know. World is everybody's game, trust me. It's the game for the world.

30:39 Anyway. World is everybody's game. Exploration or adventure or questing. Sooner or later, somebody is going to bring up combat anyway. So let's just talk about this. It's different in the sense of it takes a whole new meaning to turn-based gameplay here. Because your combat is actually sort of like an SRPG. Where everybody moves one at a time. And you decide what they're going to do individually. And then the opponents go.

31:57 And so there's this map with all of your characters, all of their characters. And terrain. And you have to kind of figure out what's the best way to approach the situation. Given the number of enemies. The location. The types of enemies. Your party. There's a lot of information on every single combat screen. This is not just choose your attack. And then an RNG generator to figure out if it lands or not. That still happens. But there's this whole where you are on the board. And where everybody else is. Real quick. Can you define SRPG?

32:35 I'm thinking like strategy RPGs. Oh, okay. Like Fire Emblem. Gotcha. Yeah. So I was definitely seeing it as like a cross between a standard like three on three. Just press attack or spells or whatever RPG. And like a tactical game. Game. But I do have a lot of complaints here. And that starts with that whole moving thing. Where your turn is either you move or you use an item or you attack.

33:14 It's just one or the other. Like I think in any other. Like in tabletop RPGs. You can move. And then you can do a thing. It was never just one or the other. And that really makes these drag.

33:28 I don't know if you want to elaborate on your feelings there. I mean I felt the same way. I mean they definitely. I hadn't really thought of them adding move and attack into like one turn. I think that's definitely like a plus. I don't have any argument against that. But you know I was initially like the same way. I was like okay this sucks. Like having to. It's taking so long to get close to anyone and whatever.

33:50 But as I kind of started to. To look at it that way. And like plan around that. It did get sort of fun. Kind of like planning. Okay like I want my character to end up this close to that enemy. And I want this other character that's healing everyone to stay back. And I want this person to be. Who's a ranged attacker to be. You know on.

34:09 The same plane as like this enemy. So we can attack like at the same time. All the while staying out of like. There are spaces because of the way it works. There are spaces where. Where sometimes you might be able to get hit by two enemies. And not be able to hit either of them. So you're going to stay out of these like spaces. That are diagonal to an enemy. Because basically they can attack diagonally. And you can't. Which I thought was bad at first too. Until I realized. Well it does kind of make you think. I mean. It's kind of a weird way to do it. Because it doesn't really like.

34:36 It doesn't really equal anything in the real world. Like why can't you attack diagonally. I kind of saw that like an anti-exploit. Sort of thing. So that you couldn't just like kite people throughout. Like around the entire map. But go ahead. Yeah. I mean I guess that. That would make sense too. But you know. I think that eventually. I started to look at those things as like. Stuff to build strategies around.

35:00 I don't know if that's like a perfectly. Like sustainable way. To make an interesting strategy game. But at least for a while. It was like. Okay. This is a new way of thinking of things. And you know. It kept me engaged. The obvious answer for me. Is exactly what Sean said. I have it here in my show notes. That movement and attack. Need to be like one thing. And I'm sure that that would also cause. Problems if you think about. Like that the other team. Also gets to move and attack. But it sounds like. Every other. You know. Strategy RPG. Has figured out. How to deal with that. So I don't think. Ultima Exodus would run into this problem.

35:34 However. You can also have what Joe's having. You know. Like this idea of. Of a very intense combat system. Where like. You enter a battle. And it's like. You have to think about. It's like a chess board. You know. Even though it's not. A perfect 8x8 grid. And every. And there's a. Role for a different person. You. Are in a battle. Where you have to think about. Where you are. What you're going to do next. And being limited to like. One thing. That you can do. Is an interesting idea. Because. You can either choose to. Retreat. Advance.

36:05 Attack. Cast a spell. Use an item. Like. The one-off thing. Is pretty interesting. Because technically. You have four. One-off things to do. Granted. You know. Some people are going to be more useful. Than others. Depending on the situation.

36:18 The bigger problem for me. Is that the payoff. Of these battles. Both in the amount of time. They take. And the reward. Is. Far too low. Yeah. It is. It is frustrating. Immediately too. It's not even something. That you recognize. After a few battles. Or after an hour. Of gameplay. It's something you realize. Immediately after the first battle. Where you're like. I just gave. Like five to six minutes. To that battle. Let's just pretend. Like you know. Because it's the first time. You have no idea. What you're doing. You know. Like you're just figuring out the game. You're like. This took me a really long time.

36:51 And the reward. Was a treasure chest. That basically. Contains something random. Hopefully. A good amount of gold. Because you really. Need gold. And probably a trap. Of some kind. Right. But it could be a trap too. Which is no good. But like. The fact that. That's the payoff. Immediately. For me. Was like. Red flags everywhere. That. This game. Is going to be a grind. And I'm going to have to try. To figure something out here. Yeah. To make this combat. More. Enjoyable. For myself. Because if. If the payoff. Is this low. I'm going to be doing these.

37:25 Six minute. You know. I would say like. Even on the. Even on the low end. You're still looking at a. Two and a half minute battle. Right. Like if you. If you don't. Use like. The undead spell. Yeah. That's what I was going to say. Like. It's really hard. Not to do that. Because. Right. It costs you literally nothing. And it ends this. It ends the entire situation. The only reason. Not to do that. Is to give. A tiny bit of experience. To somebody. That can't. End the battle. Immediately. And that. It's. I think that's just. Completely unbalanced. And. It. Makes it harder. To enjoy the game. Because. You end up having to grind. For these other characters. That don't have the. Insta win button.

38:08 And. I don't know. That was just. The. I started getting frustrated. Within the first five battles. Because of that. Yeah. It totally. Completely negates. Anything that was like. Good. Or strategy. Uh. Driven about. About. Those early battles. Or those like. Low level battles. Where it's like. Well yeah. Especially when you start to grind. You're just. I mean. I had. Of my four characters.

38:34 Uh. They all had. In like. Uh. Either undead. Or. Whatever the other one is. That. That will kill. Repel. Which kills living. Living creatures. Like basically in one hit. Or it kills a bunch of them in one hit. And I had them all equipped. You know. It's where. You know. One of them had both. And then like. Two of them had undead. And one of them had repel. Or the other way around. But. Um. And like that. That is the bulk. Of the grinding. In this game. If you want to like. If you want to get to like. A decent level. To beat it in the end. Which. Which really sucks. Because I do think that they. When you. When you have a battle. Against like a higher level enemy. And it is like.

39:14 You do have to be. A little more cerebral about it. And think about it. And think about. Yeah. Where you're going to position yourself. And where you're going to. How your characters are going to support each other. It's actually pretty in depth. And there's a lot of options. And a lot of ways to go about the battles. But. It just. It's just. If you were to do it that way. Every time. It would get really. Really tedious. Really fast. And. There's just an unbalance. In it. With these.

39:39 Low level spells. That like you said. Don't cost anything. That will just pretty much. Wipe out the whole. The whole field. And then there's the whole. Idea though. Of what you're trying to do. With the game. Right. So I could understand. From a. Review. Standpoint. For the three of us. Right. Like. Okay. This undead spell. Seems pretty good. And I can gain experience. Pretty fast. So I can keep playing. Because. This is what I want to do. For the podcast. Is like. Play on. And see what else. The game has to offer.

40:07 But. That's not a very. Rewarding. Experience. And to Joe's point. Like. It is more rewarding. To find out. What you can do. With a full team. And like. Get in these unique. Situations. Where it's like. You know. Everybody kind of. Working in tandem. With each other. And undead. Doesn't always work. Right. Like. There are enemies. Sure it fails. Sometimes. Yeah. That like. Won't be able. To be dealt with. In that way. So early. In the early game. Like undead is the op spell. And it's really hard. Not to use it. But like. It's also just a problem. In terms of what. You're trying to get. Out of the game. Like. I'm sure. Some people will be fine.

40:46 To just experience. The story. And adventure. And not care so much. About the combat. I just can't help. But feel like. It's a missed opportunity. Where they built. A really cool. Combat system. Where anything can happen.

40:59 And now. Like 90% of that. Does not matter. Yeah. Well. And also. To be honest. If you are a person. That just wants the story. And the adventure. I think you're going to have. A bad time too. Because so much of this game. Is stuff you have to do. That's not related to the story. Of the adventure. Which is like. Hours of grinding. Yeah. Like that. I feel like that's the person. That's going to be bothered. Also. I just want to state. That there's barely. Story. Like. Just read the manual. There's exploration. The other thing. That you would want to do. Is explore. And find cool things. Things. Um. But. The story. Is the manual. And a couple conversations. With. Uh.

41:35 Lord British. And a time lord. So. Uh. You're either fighting. In this grid. Where. In the early game. It's just sort of. There's a. It's a one trick pony. Uh. Or you're going through mazes. And stuff like that. And there's also like. A surprisingly low amount. Of unique enemies. In this game. Like. It depends on your level. Where. New enemies start to appear. But I was kind of surprised. To see. In a world this big. That there was maybe.

42:07 Less than 25 enemies. Total in the game. Yeah. Of types. Of types of enemies. Yeah. I do appreciate that. Like. It's not just a random grab bag. Whenever. Like. They do keep you to low levels. When you're low leveled. And then. Depending on your location. Like. You'll find certain enemies. In. Like. Dungeons. That are different than the ones. You'll find on the overworld. They're different from the ones. That you'll find in. Uh. The water.

42:35 Um. But yeah. That was. It is interesting. That there were. Were so few. Yeah. I. I think a good. A good thing that. Would have made a lot of the grinding. And the very few. Types of enemies. And all that. More forgivable. Would have been like. A few decent. Boss battles. And it wouldn't even have to be. Like one big boss. It could be like a. A battle of like. A bunch of things. That is treated like a boss battle. You know. It's like a bunch of different enemies. But that's. Significantly harder. That you have to really prepare for. And really think through. On how you're going to beat. Because otherwise.

43:06 It never got too challenging. If you were like. Just prepared. For the most part. I mean. That's why I'm saying. Go ahead. That Joe. That should just be the game though. You're right. Like these boss battles. Of different varieties of enemies. Right. Like. That should have been the game. Less about the grind. I understand that. That would completely rewrite. How this game is made. And the mechanics behind it. Because I. You know. At the end of the day. You fight. To get gold.

43:30 To buy new weapons. To. You know. Go explore new places. Like there. There is a loop there. But it's also like. How you decide. To spend your money. And do your things. But. I feel like. That's what I was arguing for. In the beginning. Was that combat should be. A thing where like. When you're in there. This battle counts. For something. Like it matters. And there's a lot on the line. Not just like. Here's six skeletons.

43:54 You know. Fight them. The cheesy way. Or fight them the real way. Payoffs the same to me. Yeah. I understand that there's going to be. A lot of trash mobs. In an RPG. And that there's like. Especially in a game. That has random battles. But. Yeah. I think that. Even if it wasn't going to be. Make every battle. Count. It would be. Make every battle. A little. Different. Or a little more interesting.

44:22 And. Some of that goes back to like. Maybe if there was. If your dexterity. Also. Change the amount of times. You can move. In a battle. Or something along those lines. It could also just be that. Like the enemies. Do different things. Like I know that there's. In the later game. You get enemies. That can do ranged attacks.

44:44 But there really isn't. Any core difference. In the way that. They operate. Every enemy. Is just a. An HP sponge. That has. A couple. Different attacks. And I think that if they just added some variety. To how they operate. Battles could have been a bit more. Of a thing to look forward to. Than as something to just grind through.

45:05 Yeah. And I'm of. Like. I feel like a rare opinion. Where like. Sometimes. I can enjoy grinding. You know. Sometimes. Depend. If it's done right. I think that there's like a satisfaction. That you get out of some of those things. I mean. This game didn't do it right. But. I can enjoy grinding. When I. When I enjoy the battle system. Right. That. That becomes an optimization game. Right. I mean. I'm thinking right. I mean. This isn't a great example. Because it's an action RPG. But I'm thinking. When I played. Kingdom Hearts 2.

45:36 I just really enjoyed. Like leveling. For some reason. There was a period of time. There was one playthrough. Where I just got really into like. Oh. I just want to. I just want to feel that experience. Of like. Getting the experience points. Getting the level up. Seeing what I get next. And like. Feeling that payoff.

45:50 Like. I think that that. There's like a level of. Of satisfaction to that. Which. I mean. You know. I felt that a little bit. Sometimes. At the beginning. When I was playing this game. Like. Oh. I'm getting so much stronger. Or whatever. But then like. It gets really old. Really fast. Because it's. It's just not. There's not enough to it.

46:05 Well. Let's talk about. The gold system here. Because. I think that's. What. Works in tandem. With the combat system. To make for this experience. That we're all dreading. As we're talking about it here. The. The gold that you get. At the start of the game. Isn't even enough. To equip a party of four. You know. I think you're lucky. To be able to buy. One and a half. Weapons. Right? Something along those lines. Yeah. So. Really. It's like. For me. It was like. Okay. Give my ranger.

46:33 An actual. Like ranged weapon. So this way. We can. You know. Use him properly. But then also. The. The gold that you get. From the combat. Is part of that grind. Right? So ultimately. You're not gaining. A tremendous amount. Of experience points. And getting stronger. And getting that good feedback. Look. Loop of like. I should. Beat up skeletons. Because the more skeletons. I beat up. The stronger I get. Instead. It's like. I should beat up skeletons. To get a chance. To get gold. So that. If. After. X amount of time. I'll collect enough gold. To then buy. One new weapon. Or one new piece of armor. For my. For. For one of my characters.

47:15 Yeah. The. It's also. Sort of like a. Um. A quirk. Of the way. That this game. Does leveling. Uh. That there's. A lot. Like. I can't. Really. I can't really. Think of. How to describe. The. The relationship. Between your level. And your equipment. But it seems. At least in the early game. Your equipment. Counts. A lot more. Towards how you're going to perform. Than your level. Um. And that. That kind of. Switches around. In the later game. Um. But. It. It is sort of. Counterintuitive. At times. Like that. Like you're. You're fighting. For different reasons. Than you would. Otherwise think. If you have like. A history in RPGs. If that's sort of. What you're saying. Yeah. Like. Yeah. And usually. You're. You're fighting. For. You know.

48:09 Storyline progression. Yeah. To get to the next. To get to the next town. Or whatever. Or you're fighting. Because. You know. You want to level up. And unlock this new skill. Or this. Um. Or you know. Up your attack stat. Or something like that. Yeah. That doesn't happen here. Um. You know. Even for like. The first. Five level ups. I don't know how true it is. For the rest of the game. I'll admit. That I did not get to the end of the game. Um. When you level up. With Lord British. When you talk to him. And he offers you the level up. As far as I know. You only level up. Your health. Yeah. Your health just goes up. A hundred. Health points. It's like. That's even like.

48:44 A shitty reward system. It's like. What do you mean? I finally did all this. And now I just get a hundred extra HP. I was doing fine. Just killing these guys. With the normal amount of HP. It's my attack stat. I want to boost. Yeah. Well. And the thing that makes that difficult. Is you level up. And yeah. You get a hundred extra HP.

49:02 But then. All the other enemies. Like on the overworld. Get stronger. Like stronger enemies appear. Rather. Yeah. Yes. Oh. I got more HP. But now I'm fighting like. Really hard battles. And I haven't gotten any stronger. And my. My wisdom and intelligence. And dexterity. Haven't gotten any higher. So like. You gotta. You gotta like. First of all. Understand that going into it. Which it doesn't make clear.

49:24 Maybe it does in the manual. I don't know. It doesn't. It's very counterintuitive. So. So then you have to understand it going into it. And then like. Prepare for that. So like. By the time you level up. You have all the things you need. To be able to take on. These new threats. That are going to be in like. The main. You know. Right outside of the castle. That you start the game in. Suddenly there will be like. End game level threats. You know. Yeah. And that's my point though. Right. Is like. How much of. Your first few hours with this game. Were just spent. In the field. Right outside of the main town.

49:55 Just. Grinding. For. For something. You know. You're not quite sure what you're doing yet. And you might. Want to explore a little bit. But you're not really ready to explore. Until you're a little more decked out. With equipment. So it's like this. You know. Is this the game? Like I just roam around this field. And wait for skeletons to appear. And that's sort of. If we're just going to go. Into more like. Game experience now. That's sort of how I played it. In the beginning. Because I. I tell myself this. For the larger games. Of just like. I'm going to read the manual.

50:27 But I'm not going to look up. Walkthroughs. Quite yet. And I'll see if like. I can just get a handle on this. So. But that was how I played. This game for the first few hours. Of just like. Okay. I'm just going to walk around. I guess I'll check out this forest. I found this cool town. In a forest. And. But I didn't know where I was supposed to go. I'm getting these like. One sentence clues. From some townspeople. It's like. Okay. At some point. I'm going to. Have to. Like. Go to Ambrosia. Whatever that means.

50:59 Um. But it was just like. This kind of game. If you don't have. I know. I know that there was like. A strategy guide. Released around the time. That this game was released. If you don't have that. This is going to take you. A very long time. And I. And the. The grinding is just supposed to be like. What you do. Uh. Incidentally. Of. Not exactly knowing where to go. Um. And then when I. Was just like. Okay. I'm. I'm not playing. This for 80 hours. Um. That's when I went to a walkthrough. And it's like. Okay. Then go here. And then do this. Um. So. That's sort of. Where I was coming from there.

51:39 Yeah. I started out. Um. You know. I started out. Just for the. Just for the heck of. Kind of jumping in blind. I started out doing a similar thing. Where I just like. Explored for a little bit. And then I was like. Okay. I'm going to definitely. At least need to give this. The same treatment. I gave Zelda 2.

51:52 Where. I kind of would like. Kind of skim through the walkthrough. And then go like. Okay. I got to go. To Ambrosia. Or I got to go. You know. Get my dexterity up. Or I got to go to Dawn. But it was like. Okay. I learned what I have to do. Now I'll go do it. Without looking at the walkthrough. And I did that a little bit. But. Eventually. In this. It. It does turn into. Okay. I'm going to play this. Alongside the walkthrough. Like. I have to kind of. Go one for one. What's in the walkthrough. Or I'll never figure out. What to do. Because like. Like you mentioned Sean. That somebody mentions. Ambrosia in a town.

52:23 Yes. The only way to get to Ambrosia. Is to first. Level up to. Like at least level five. Fight pirates. In the pirates. Pirate ship. Steal their pirate ship. Which I didn't know. That's how you would do it. But I actually do think. That's kind of a cool way. That's really. Really cool. There doesn't need to be a clue. Yeah. You can just figure that out. Like oh maybe I can just steal. The enemy pirates. Pirate ship. So steal their ship. And then. Sail to.

52:46 A whirlpool. And go into the whirlpool. And that takes you to Ambrosia. So like. An NPC saying. You should go to Ambrosia. Is not really enough of a clue. If I don't have any clue. If Ambrosia is a city. Or a place. Or a whirlpool. In the middle of the ocean. Like. It needs to give me something. To be like. Oh. You should check out the whirlpool. Or something. Even if it's more. You know. Even if it's a less obvious clue than that. But like. Give me something. That I can get there without looking it up. Or stumbling upon it. It's true though. Like. After enough time. And you do get to level five. Just by. You know.

53:19 Mindlessly going around. Fighting things. For hours and hours. You'll probably come across. A pirate ship. And it'll probably occur to you. To try and steal it. And then you will probably. Investigate what that whirlpool sprite thing is. And you touch it. And you end up there. So like. And that seems like a really cool.

53:40 Sense of. Like a discovery. Like when you finally get to these points. Like discovering that you can commandeer this ship. And discovering that this whirlpool takes you to this other. This other land. And those are really cool feelings. But they just seem to be. Like. They just. Buried by. So much. Like. Fighting goblins. And fighting orcs. And. In this. What we've kind of come to the conclusion. Of being a. A divisive combat system.

54:13 Yeah. It needed to happen more frequently. It needed to be a. Like. Like that is a really cool moment. Like you mentioned Sean. And I'd be impressed. Even if. That happened. Right. Like that sequence of events. You. You steal the pirate ship. You go down the whirlpool. And now you're like. I'm in a whole new world. Like this is crazy. Right. Yeah. But then. You get stuck. In the. In the original loop again. Yeah. And you're like. Wait a minute. How much longer now. Before the next cool set. Yeah. I can't be. I can't be investing. Hours of my life. Into something. That I'm. Essentially boils down to like.

54:45 You know. Um. I don't want to say. Cutscenes. Because they're not. They're. They're things that you're. In control of. But at the end of the day. They really are just. These set pieces. That any modern game. Would also have for you. We would have at your disposal. So like. Yeah. That was probably a really cool thing. To experience in 1989. But I don't know. If it was a really cool thing. In 1989. After grinding for hours. To get to the point. Where you steal a pirate ship. Yeah. And this might be a little bit. Of like a. Of a crude explanation. Of this. And maybe. It's a little harsh.

55:16 But I. But I was going to say. Like. If you really take. If you take out. The grinding. And you take out. Like. Okay. There's. There's the grinding. There's the overworld map. There's the dungeons. And like. Those three things. Kind of all. Are the same. Once you're. If you. If you fought one. Low level enemy. You fought the ball. If you've gone into one dungeon. Like. Yeah. They're different layouts. Whatever. But like. The dungeons are the dungeons.

55:38 And then. That's like. 80% of the game. The other things. The unique things. Like. outside of those main gameplay loop parts, I mean, are there like eight other things in this game that aren't the main? Like they're just spaced out by this giant amount of filler and there's like eight or ten little unique things?

55:59 Am I exaggerating there? No, no, no. I'd say the game is 80% these battles. I'm not going to consider the dungeons to be on the same level of sort of obtrusiveness. No, you're right, yeah. Because that is still like, it's a new way to play the game, which we'll get to.

56:24 But no, I agree with you. Like most of this game is filler, but like that's sort of what adventuring is. Like adventure games are to do this loop and to try and go to new places via these sort of smaller sub games. But is the story they're telling here about like, you know, steal the pirate ship, go to Ambrosia, get the mark of the kings and everybody gets the mystic sword, talk to the time lord, right? Is that the be all end all of storytelling? This isn't a storytelling game. I'm never, I need to keep calling out on that. I think I, I think you just, sorry. I think I see your point though. Cause like, that's kind of what I'm getting at too. Not the story, but it's like,

57:11 there's your, your adventure is actually, there's very few things you need to do on this adventure. You have like, you have like five or six or maybe, maybe eight or nine tasks. And those tasks each individually will take you 20 minutes, but this game will take you 80 hours because getting from one task to another and leveling up and getting the stuff that you need

57:35 is just so heavily reliant on the filler. You know, I'm not even against like random battles, which is not exactly what this game has, but like random encounters that people get like very annoyed with. I don't hate those if it like, if it. If it's fun. If it does its job of making a dungeon feel precarious and making you kind of frustrated in like a way where it's like, you feel really relieved when you're out of the dungeon. But they, they overdid it. We'll put it that way. It's the way in which it makes you feel relieved to get out of the dungeon. Right. All right. All right.

59:05 You know, like don't fall into the water pits. And then it's the Ambrosia level. And it's like, oh, it's all weird and different than looking in the pirate ship level. And then you finally get the mystic sword. And now that's like a weapon that you can use to attack other than jumping.

59:19 I can see those things happening in other games. I'm just saying like is the end vehicle here of an RPG doing anything other than making this game incredibly tedious at this point? Like don't get me wrong. The game has a lot of interesting stuff going on in it and, you know, certainly introducing players to ideas that can't be explored in a platformer. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying at the end of the day, is this actually the worthwhile experience payoff that you're looking for in an RPG? Mike, while we're on that point, can I just can I read you something from GameFAQs?

59:59 Yeah. All right. So like just in the thing of just like what do we what do we want from an RPG? Like what even is an RPG? Um, I'm going to read you a review or an excerpt of a review from Ultima Exodus, uh, written by SF Styles in 2010.

1:00:18 Um, he says, uh, while story is important for an RPG, you can always get a good story from a book or movie. To me, the number one point of a good RPG game is to build your characters into powerful things and then have ways to enjoy it.

1:00:40 And it's it sounds to me that like all this guy wants is like he doesn't care about the context behind why you have a character getting powerful. Just that like you have like that is just the system like you are getting powerful by grinding and and fighting and there's no end goal. It's just the act of of building this character. And well, it sounds like he has a God complex.

1:01:12 I don't know about that. I think it's just like people play RPGs for different reasons and we play them for I guess a more broad reason of like we we like the we like the act of building characters. But we also like to have a reason why to build a character and like what their place is in this world that they're like you're they're in. Whereas he could just be in a dungeon never ending dungeon and probably enjoy it. And I think that's just the way people like people enjoy games in different ways, I guess.

1:01:48 Yeah, I mean sure most most video games don't make any sense at all when you consider how psychopathic the characters must be to murder that many people in a video game. Right. Like I'm sure this has been talked about at length, but Nathan Drake is just not a good guy. Like he's killed thousands of people across his adventure. You know, the guy is shooting at probably what's that they're shooting at him. You know, he's a I always wait until they shoot first and then I attack every game is like that, though, right?

1:02:16 It's like they're they're just like they're cold blooded killers in all these games. And then you're supposed to believe that they're the good guys. Like I agree that that the character building is a big part of it. And I would also just argue, though, that for me, Ultima Exodus, as I mentioned earlier, the payoff between moments is not that good. And the optimization can just happen early on through exploits.

1:02:40 There is a way to play this game by forcing yourself not to take advantage of those exploits and say, I'm going to learn the system the way the game was designed. And I'm going to be the best at playing that kind of Ultima Exodus. And you can do that with your time. You are more than welcome to do that for a good portion of your life. But I don't think that for me, the the tradeoff of like hours that I have available to me in my lifespan and Ultima Exodus were hitting a balance.

1:03:14 Yeah. And I hear what what what your what your guy is saying there, Sean. I do. Not my guy. Your reference is saying that. That's your ghostwriter. Yeah. But I yeah, I just don't think that Ultima Exodus has all of the elements in place to like really scratch that itch. You know, because even so, it's still just it's still just doing the fights over and over again and leveling up. There's not like I don't know, there's not enough of like that that really personalized character building once you get into the grind of it.

1:03:46 I agree. But let me just say to Mike's point saying that you were sort of likening exploitation to be the antithesis of what SF Styles is saying here, that that is the wrong way to play the game in his eyes. But let me just read you what he says right before that line. Speaking of exploiting a game system, Exodus had a great way to do so. It was what made Exodus truly shine. It was the best way to really enjoy the game.

1:04:17 But by that by those standards, you might as well say that the best way to enjoy a video game is to actually like load the data onto your computer and change the decibels. So this way all the enemies actually die on on appearance. I don't know. I really don't know. I that's showing the game who's boss. Like, look, I'm making you powerless to my abilities. I don't know why he plays games, but I'm sure maybe some of our listeners will agree with us of styles, but I guess I just don't get it. I mean, I do agree that the exploit is the best way to play this game. I think that that speaks to the fact that like the way you're supposed to play the game was not designed really very well.

1:04:59 Nothing wrong with a game turning out to be good because of an exploit. But yeah, I don't think that I think even with the exploit this game, we're talking I imagine you guys played it with the exploit as well, right?

1:05:11 Yeah, you kind of have to keep going. I definitely played the game normal, too, but you have to exploit it at some point to continue to progress. Well, I'll say that everything at least that I've been saying and I do have a lot of I did really like this game in some aspects. I have a lot of good things to say about this game. But all the negative things I'm saying about this game, I'm saying with the exploit, I only played it with the exploit. So like even with the exploit, like there are a lot, there's a lot of flaws. There's still a challenge there. Yeah.

1:05:38 Okay, but here's the thing about exploits in games. There is a way to make a good game that has not even like an actual exploit, but just something that's like, oh, well, this is just the game on easy mode. And it all goes back to a little game I like to call Super Mario World.

1:05:55 All right. Where the main power up of the cape, some people will tell you that the cape is just too powerful. You can just fly over the levels and do all your things and stuff like that. And that's true. But I was also able to respect that game enough to be like, this game is fun without the cape. Like I want to play these levels and I want to beat them without the cape so that I can actually like play them as Mario because that part of the game is also fun. I would argue as somebody who played with and without the exploit, it is not as fun to play this game when you're actually doing the correct way. Yeah. I agree.

1:06:35 All right. Let's move on for a second because it seems like we're getting into an agreement there. We're getting into the weeds here. So I want to – Yeah. We don't want to agree with this. And agree with this. I want to leave an agreement. You know, like I think that that's good because a lot of times on this show we just fight the whole time. I love fighting. So let's agree. Let's agree to agree. Can you agree with me? I agree. Okay. Thank you. Caves and dungeons. All right. Let's talk about it. There is a different system here.

1:07:00 It's all of a sudden a first-person 3D. Dungeon crawler. Yeah. Dungeon crawler. But like, you know, more like with wireframe design because there's not enough information here to really discern where you are in first person. Not that we were expecting anything amazing, but I think even games like the Goonies had more detail on their set building. That's true. Than Ultima is offering here. But Ultima is also offering a much larger exploration than Goonies was offering. So I can understand that they're saying, well, here's the tradeback. You know, we'll give you a crazy big dungeon. We just can't make it look as pretty. I don't know, man.

1:07:48 Okay. So the dungeons are big. Huge. They're huge. Yes. But is that like, okay, we made them look less pretty so we can make them these huge megaliths that are the same everywhere. And there's a couple – I mean there's a bunch of treasure chests everywhere with the same stuff in them. And there's a couple fountains everywhere just to, like, you know, maybe trick you or give you some water – some water. Give you some life back. And then there's going to be these random battles everywhere.

1:08:20 Like, did it need to be that big? Well, Sean, you fell into my trap. You fell right into my trap of, again, another thing where the developers came up with this system, right? You know, let's just make it a huge adventure game where you've got this cave that's so big that you might get lost in it and lose your save file and have to start all over again. Like, let's really just, like, show people how hard it is to go, you know, trekking through the world of Ultima.

1:08:50 And I'm kind of like, no, pass. Like, I don't want to explore your gigantic labyrinth that could cause me to, like, soft lock my game if I'm not careful. Now, that can't actually happen. But I think when you die in the dungeon, correct me if I'm wrong, you just go back to being British, right? You go back to being British, right? Yeah. Lord British to you. Let me say something positive about the dungeons.

1:09:13 So, we've seen this done a couple other times. What was it? Golgo 13. I feel like there were one or two others that tried to do this, like, 3D maze sort of thing. This, I think... Yes. I think this was the best iteration. This was the best try. Because this was the first time that I remember seeing this, like, 3D environment and not really ever losing my bearings. There was a compass.

1:09:36 Yeah. Was there not a compass in other games? I was trying to remember. Well, I don't know. I think this is the only one that I really, like, saw, like, oh, I'm facing north. I get it. Right. Yeah. And I didn't get disoriented or lost in that way. Like, okay, wait. Did I come from this way? Did I come from that way? Which way am I facing now? Obviously, just because there's a compass. And that made it more fun for me to kind of try and solve the maze and try and backtrack and figure out, like, where did I come from? Try and, like, map it out in my head or maybe, like, write it on a piece of paper and, like, map out where I've been and where I've come from.

1:10:08 But I feel like with everything this game does right, it does something that kind of hurts that, like, positive point. And for reasons I can't fathom, we've seen other games do this also, most, if not all, of these dungeons require you to many, many times understand that a wall is not really a wall. You'll run into a dead end or you'll just look to your left on the wall that you've been walking along the whole time. And at one point, it's actually a secret doorway that if you walk through, there's no wall really there. And you have to go through it. You have no idea where these secret walls are, but they're everywhere.

1:10:46 And that makes it – that completely negates the fact that they made these, like, functioning mazes that I can get my bearings in because it still found a way to make it impossible for me to really figure it out without just trying every possible tile. Yeah. And my – so my complaint wasn't so much that it was just as disorienting. I know what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you were implying that. I'm not saying that you were implying that I was implying that. It was just that it was featureless. And, like, yeah, these secret walls are features, I guess.

1:11:22 But if you're going to make eight levels of a maze, maybe put some other interesting things in them than treasure chests with gold in them. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree with that point too. Yeah. But, you know, Joe, you mentioned there's this – you know, for everything that's good, there's one bad. It's like, no. It's like for everything that's good, there's a lot of bad.

1:11:50 And there is some good stuff in this game. I'm not trying to knock it. I think there is something to enjoy and there were kind of moments where I was surprised. For instance, the first time I went into one of these dungeons, I was like, wow, it's first-person 3D. That's surprising. Shouldn't have been considering how hard everything was up until that point. But, you know, it's more like these things that they do right are, you know, glimmers of light. You're like, oh, maybe they've figured it out. And then you just remember, you know, what you're doing and how long you've been playing and what you could have been playing instead.

1:12:24 And you have this issue that I've been having all along. But, again, with the caves, why? Why first-person 3D? Why couldn't this be in 2D? They already – it's not like it's never been done before to make 2D dungeons. Most of the NES games we play, the dungeons take place in 2D. Heck, make this one a platformer, right? Now, all of a sudden, you have to use – Stop trying to make this game a platformer, Mike. Get the zapper. Stop it. Get the zapper. Get Rob. But even the fact that, like, the dungeons are dark, right? Like, okay, makes sense again, world building and everything like that. Who's this game for?

1:13:03 Dungeons are dark, world building. Dungeons are dark, right, right. You know? No, because think about it. Like, there are some caves you go into, again, in a game like Pokemon where it's like only certain ones require Flash. And it's like, why is that? Like, wouldn't all the caves be dark?

1:13:18 So, you know, this is interesting that all the dungeons are dark in this game. They chose to commit to it. I love it. However, it's going to require you to constantly use spells. And if you don't have the MP for it, then you have to use torches. And if you don't have that, you're just going in the dark.

1:13:34 You know, you need to constantly spam this stuff over and over and over again. Like, those things diminish. The spell is cast, and it's not like it's good until you leave the dungeon. It's done when it's done. It's done. So, it's just another thing where it's like, I shouldn't be able to think of this many examples of things while I'm playing a game. I should be able to just enjoy the game, not saying, like, why do I want this? Why do I want that? I don't consider that a negative, honestly.

1:13:57 That gives me a little bit of, like, the satisfaction of, like, okay, having to prepare. Okay, I'm going to go in this dungeon. I'm not just going to go walk to the dungeon. Like, you know, I'm trying to immerse myself. So, like, well, I better go into town and pick up some torches. And I better have some tents. And I better stock up, you know, on food. Food, which I thought was really stupid at first. But then, like, as time went on, I was like, well, it's a nice little break from fighting the same enemy over and over again. And it, like, gives me something to, like, immerse myself.

1:14:24 Yeah, it's like it's a little immersion. Like, it gives me a reason to care that I got to a town. I'm like, oh, great. I'm at a town. I can go pick up the supplies I need, which are different depending on what I'm going to do next. I mean, there's not a ton of those things. But you need torches. You might want sand if you're going to fight some high-level enemies and you want to slow them down. You just got to think about, like, your money management in that sense, too. And I actually thought that that helped the immersion a little bit.

1:14:48 But if this is a game like Fallout New Vegas where there's, like, a survival mode, right, where, like, you know, you have to eat food, you have to manage everything about yourself, and, you know, you die and that's it, right? Like, if it is a survival mode game, I'm into that because the overall, like, game is working for me and is fun and the idea of surviving in that world is fun.

1:15:11 I'm not, at this point, definitely. I mean, now I'm, like, who knows how many hours in before I've entered a dungeon. I am not sold that I want to prepare and slog through all these additional dungeons. I don't want to do that at this point in the game. If you would have introduced that earlier, I would have maybe taken it a little more seriously. But at this point, I'm exhausted.

1:15:33 I don't want to have to constantly cast spells and bring all this stuff and figure out, like, okay, I think I already went down this corridor before seven times, you know? I know this is sounding like I'm whining and I am putting on a bit of, you know, a character here. But bear with me because I think the overall point is is that every new thing that happens in this game, I am left saying, well, why couldn't they just do thing I want instead? And that doesn't happen with every game we play. And it definitely doesn't happen with every bad game we play.

1:16:10 Like, a lot of games, I'll just admit, I'm like, these aren't for me or these just aren't good games, you know? But I don't think of, like, alternatives. For this game, it seems like everything that I don't like, I do have an alternative answer for. And I am not saying that I am better than the people who made Ultimate Exit. Well, I agree. Go ahead, Joe. I would just say, so what is your alternative answer to the torch thing? Just not having torches and just having it be lit up the whole time?

1:16:34 I think there could be a torch that, you know, when you have that torch, right? Like, it's at the front of the dungeon or whatever, and you bring, you know, you have that torch. And that's, like, that's your party's torch. There's four of you. One person can hold the torch. And you can grab more torches throughout the cave. Like, somebody had to explore those caves before you. So there must be, you know, like, it's not, they're not really, like, caves. They are layered dungeons that have, like, stuff inside them. So clearly people have been there. So I don't think if, you know, if that's the answer, I would actually say I'd go back to my 2D response of, like, I don't see why these dungeons even have to be in first person.

1:17:16 But, you know, I think the realism is, again, great. Like, you know, I've been saying that this whole time of, like, who is this game really for? And the fact that they give you all these choices is undeniably a decision that they've made. They want you to feel like you're in control of everything that happens.

1:17:34 I guess I've just had it. You know? Yeah, I mean, I don't, like, I'm submitting the control. I'm like, I'm done. So here's where I'm going to try and bridge the gap here. I agree that without these diminishing resources like food, like torches, not so much like MP because all you have to do is spin around in a circle and then you can cast light again. But without that, it sort of makes the dungeons feel a little less harrowing. What I would say, though, is that these specific things that you are preparing for, because preparation is a huge concept and it's a really big part of this game.

1:18:14 It's just the way that it was executed. And, like, unlike Mike, I don't really know how you could go about it without just removing these features that would make this feel less like of a claustrophobic environment.

1:18:31 But there just should have, if they did it in a different way, if, like, it was, if maybe if it was just a little more forgiving, like, if you did run out of torches, there could be some way to find some more while you're still, like, lost in the dark. I don't know.

1:18:51 But it does, it is tedious in its current form. And I'm not, I guess I'm just not eloquent enough to put it in a way. Mike just says that he's kind of done. I don't have anything better to say than that, too.

1:19:08 I mean, I will say that, you know, I definitely don't think that this is the best and most interesting, like, types of preparation they could put in their game. Of course, yeah. But I do think that having it is better than not having it. And I actually still do sort of think that, like, it shouldn't be more forgiving. Like, if you didn't bring enough torches or don't have a spell, then, like, yeah, you know, you should, you know, there should be a consequence where it's like, oh, shit, I'm going to die here. Oh, it should definitely be detrimental.

1:19:37 Yeah. But, yeah, you're right. I actually agree with you there. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like, yeah. I think for me, it's just like the overall, it's still pretty shallow. I want more in-depth versions of that or more stuff to do that with if that's going to be, like, the direction the game goes. But I do think, yeah, I don't know. Just taking it away, I feel like, makes it less interesting for me. But I guess it's just a preference as well. There should be rats that, you know, just like they run across your feet and they give you a disease.

1:20:10 And then it's just like you have to get back to the hospital before, you know, before the disease kills you. Well, that sort of does happen. I mean, you open a chest and you get a disease and you have to get back to the hospital. I think that's funny because that happened on my very first playthrough of the game. One of my characters caught a cold. Yeah, caught a cold for the first chest. I couldn't find a fountain. So I was like, I'm dead. Like, this is, I have to reset the game. I don't know where a fountain is and that's the only way to cure a cold, apparently.

1:20:35 I think you can go to the hospital. You can go to the doctor. Yeah. You silly goose. I didn't go to the doctor. So I just reset that game and didn't get a cold until later on after that. But I think that's so funny that, like, my first experience in this game was getting a cold. And I'm like, oh, you want to be more real? The rats give you the plague and you have to escape the cave before you die. Hey, I mean, that's somebody's game.

1:20:58 Well, something that, something that is sort of on the same, same page as what we're talking about is the way that your character is like, your character dying is detrimental also. It's not like, oh, I'll use a quick revive or I'll run to the Pokemon Center, you know, and heal my party. Yeah. And I, because of how much of a pain it was, I really, really fought very hard to not let any of my characters ever die.

1:21:28 Like, after like one or two and I switched to new characters. Once I had the characters I was going to use for the rest of the game. It's very expensive. I was like, yeah, do not let the characters ever die. Always make sure they have enough food. Always heal, you know, and make sure that they're all like high levels. And I succeeded for most of the game. I got to the point where I had everything you needed. There's a lot of like errands to run before you can go into the final, the final dungeon or the castle.

1:21:54 And I got everything I needed. And I was, and I was, the last thing I was getting, there's some cards you have to get in Ambrosia. I was getting those. I got those final ones.

1:22:03 And two of my characters, or three of my characters died because I realized I'd run out of food. And I was like, oh shit, like, I got to get back to town fast before my fourth character dies. You know, so I use the, you know, you get like these heart compasses that transport you back to the main town. I use that. I get in there.

1:22:19 I get some food real quick to give to my remaining character. But I have no money left because I just spent it all on upgrades in Ambrosia. So I have to go, this is a really long story, sorry. But I have to go and fight with my one remaining. I have to fight with my one remaining character as much as I can to get enough money to revive people because it costs, I think, 500 gold. Then I go to the doctor to revive. First time I've ever tried it. Failed. And he says, he says, no, it doesn't fail. He says, I'll see what I can do. And then he comes back and says, you took too long. You took too long. John, or no, Matt. They're all named after people I know too. Matt, my archer. He's like, you took too long. Matt has turned to dust.

1:22:58 And there's no reviving him. This character I just spent like 40 hours building. And you just can't get him back. Oh, you can't. I had to go to an older save. Thank God I didn't save it after he had died. But then I was like, now I've got to do all this shit again?

1:23:12 I'm not speaking from experience, but I'm speaking from somebody else's experience that you have to go to some place and go to a temple and they can turn them from ash back into person. Oh, I didn't know that. I really thought that it was like, oh, what's the, how long? But that's like 900 gold. So. Jeez. And like, how long does it take for them to turn to, like, how long do you have to get to the hospital? I have no idea. That's why I see it as like the doctor failed because I think it's, I think it's RNG whether it works or not.

1:23:43 But maybe it's a time limit thing. Well, he still took my money. So I couldn't even try it again. Yeah. He still took your money. That's like, you know, it's medical malpractice. It's like, whatever. You still got a bill to pay. That was the most frustrating experience I had playing this game. And there were a lot of others, but that was definitely, because I was ready to go face the final challenge. I was ready to go beat the game, I thought. I mean, it probably wasn't. That is still a cool story, though. Yeah. I got that out of it. There is story to this game.

1:24:10 Moment of clarity. Okay. I just want to let everyone know that everything Joe has been talking about for a while now are all awesome features. And he's right to be excited about them. And I'm not arguing that these are unique features in this game and that they're all good and stuff like that.

1:24:28 The argument I've been making for a while now, and I just want to make it as clear as possible, is that this game has lost its good faith from me. Like, I'm done with it. At this point, I can't hide it anymore that I'm not going to have a good time. And now it's like, again, the preparation thing. If this was Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild and you had to prepare for a cave or that island, right, where, like, they stripped you of everything. And now you're in this island and you have to just, like, regain everything.

1:24:58 Like, that's such a cool moment in that game. But I'm there for it because I'm there for that game. I'm not here for this game. So when it tries to do something cute and new, all of a sudden I'm just angry. I'm just angry that it's, like, another new thing that I have to deal with. Like you were talking about, Joe, with party members dying. It's like that's a really deep system that they've created here of, like, death is somewhat permanent. And who knows if you're even going to be able to get them back. And then even if you can't get them back, then you have to do Sean's method of going to a temple and reviving them. Like, that could take who knows how many hours and who knows how much time.

1:25:34 And we could debate whether it should take that many hours and that much time. Or if there's just, like, a faster way to do it that would still make the effect really cool. What I'm saying is, is, like, that mechanic in the scheme of this game, like, this game's scope is just so large. And it's offering you so much.

1:25:56 But the problem is, is that nothing really syncs with each other in this game. There's so many things that are fighting me at all times to make me not want to continue to play the game. That ultimately I can't enjoy the systems because they're all kind of working against you to make sure that the game itself is harder. I think, like, I kind of see what you mentioned it before, too. It seems like the negative consequences of a lot of things sort of outweigh the positives that come out of playing the game correctly or well.

1:26:32 So that, like, for every step forward you feel like there's two steps back. It just, that sort of, that reward and punishment is just out of balance. Right? Yeah. I'm with you on that, too. I mean, even with what I was just complaining about with the death thing, now knowing, I mean, I think if my character was gone forever, I probably would not ever really be able to, like, think that that was a good system. But now knowing that there is a way, and it seems like even more of a pain in the ass, to get him back from Ashes and go there, I don't think that that's terrible if I, yeah, if I were enjoying the rest of the game enough to want to do that.

1:27:09 You know? Yeah. I think that would be okay if the positives were up there with that negative. Then it feels like, okay, I got to go on this journey to get my characters back. It's like a whole other game now to get my characters back because, like, you know, is it worth it? And, you know, that whole thing. But, yeah, you're right. It doesn't – all it does for me is make me cringe at the idea of spending, like, that many more hours grinding just to get the money I need to get my characters back. Yeah. Like, if the loop was more fun, then I would enjoy it more.

1:28:06 And let's talk about management. The, you know, the gold, the food, just, you know, weapons and armor, like, how you manage your team throughout the game. The first thing that I had to do right away was transfer all my gold to one character because I couldn't stand having, you know, when you're shopping and they're like, who's making the purchase? And then who is it for?

1:28:32 Like, it's like just put the first character, everybody give him all the money and then we'll just – no, seriously. And then this way he's, like, in the front of the party. He collects the money and then he's just, like, our banker for the system. Yeah, that's kind of it too. It's a little strange though, right? It's a little strange that gold even has to be – like, you're a party of four.

1:28:53 It's another, you know, D&D thing that they're sticking to where, like, everybody has their own gold and they can spend it how they want. But you're all four characters in this scenario. Like, you're not playing with three other people. I think the proper way to play this game might be with the four people and hand the controller back and forth between each of you and you each control one character and make all those decisions. That's really funny. No.

1:29:19 No, that's funny though because – no, because that would make the combat sections even longer. It would make the whole game – like, it would make everything so much longer because you have to – you know, it's like – it's crazy that we talked about combat maybe, like, an hour ago now. But we, like, just said that, yeah, they don't let you move and they don't let you attack in the same turn. And that was, like, it. But I need to let the viewers know, like, that is frustrating. That is so crazy. It's such a huge thing.

1:29:47 You, like, you move and then you – done. Like, that's your turn. And then God forbid, like, what if you – there's, like, something where you can accidentally choose – you press a button and then you no longer get the option to it. Oh, yeah. If you make the wrong input, it's just like, oh, that's your turn then. Like, you just risk the skip turn button. You made a mistake. And if you open a menu or one of the menus, you open the menu and you're like, oh, no, I want to back out of that menu. It's like, okay, you can back out of that menu, but you're not doing anything else. We'll move on to the next character. It's like, why – you're allowing me to back out of the menu. Let me have my turn still.

1:30:26 But, yes, Mike, look, on the topic of managing resources, this game should have just had a party coin purse and a party inventory. So you don't have to deal with hot swapping money and, like, all this, like, very minute, tedious stuff that really – it's not necessary at all. I'm just surprised that they put it in the game at all. Well, because think about it. If that character dies, then their money is gone too. But that's not how that would work. I think you've got their ashes. You've got their ashes still. I think you can take the money off of them.

1:31:03 Exactly. Well, I can confirm because I had two and eventually three dead characters that you can take things from dead characters. So it's there. Like, even that, like, risk of punishment isn't even – it should have just been a party inventory system.

1:31:19 Yeah. There's nothing that anyone can say to say that it makes sense this way as a one-player game. What I think it boils down to is that they had – they were creative enough to find ways to put all of these elements from, like, Dungeons & Dragons into a video game. But they weren't creative enough to, like, recognize the things that should change from, like, a tabletop RPG into a one-player video game. And they, like, left too many of those things exactly the same, like, as close to the way that they would be done in, like, Dungeons & Dragons. Yeah, taking them as givens, yeah. Yeah. I get it.

1:31:56 But no. Well, if you think about it – right. No, it's true. If you think about it, like, that's what Final Fantasy excels at, right? It was also based off of Dungeons & Dragons. I mean, some of the enemies are, like, right from the books. So it's interesting that they were able to be like, okay, well, we have to adapt this thing. Like, maybe they were just afraid of being sued.

1:32:17 But they were like, we have to, you know, figure out a way to make this a video game. I think that's a great point, Joe, is, like, they decided to just do their best translation of Dungeons & Dragons without thinking about why it might not work. And given that this is the third entry, I'm really interested to know, like, what were the – what was the bare bones-ness of the first and second one? Like, what does this one feature and prove? So the first – I think the first two, like, on the PCs or the computer versions of the first two are more of, like, that first-person, like, turn-based, like, typical of what we think of as Final Fantasy that, like, just take turns attacking each other. There's no, like, spatial component to battles.

1:33:08 I think all the – maybe the resource stuff is all the same. I didn't play them, but I was looking at some of them. And the battle system, at least, is much more akin to what I was expecting out of this game.

1:33:18 It's even weirder, actually, because then that makes – then that's, like – they decide – it was, like, a new idea for them to try and make it more, like, Dungeons & Dragons. I don't know. I mean, I guess that makes sense. They're trying to, you know, they're trying a new thing, but it's weird that they didn't, like – I don't know. It's weird that they came up with the idea of making everything so much more one-to-one with Dungeons & Dragons rather than, like, having gotten more experience in making video games and realizing what works for video games.

1:33:46 I mean, I still think that, like, you know, moving around in combat works. I mean, I love playing XCOM and Fire Emblem and stuff like that. It's just that they did it wrong.

1:33:57 So it's just an experimentation. I don't blame them for doing it, but it did hurt the product. All right, so let's get back to that thing that I keep saying, like, all right, man, you know, maybe we'll have this conversation. Let's have this conversation, okay?

1:34:10 Who is this game for? It's definitely not for Bobby, you know, your seven-year-old cousin who's going to Toys R Us and he sees this game and he's, like, this one, right? It's, like, that's a mistake. Like, you know, should have bought Super Mario Bros., kid. You're in for a world of hurt now. Now, who is this game for when it comes to the NES? Obviously, like, you know, computer gamers were a breed of their own back then. So was this game obtuse on purpose? I don't think it was obtuse on purpose. I think that Bobby could be a prospective RPG player. Like, this is, like, what would have introduced him to this wild world of choice and consequence that RPGs are, or at least, like, Western RPGs are all about.

1:35:09 I think that we see all of these faults and, like, all of these terrible systems. But what Bobby, and I love that we've just created this straw man here, Bobby just sees this land of adventure where he can steal a pirate ship and choose who gets to hold the money and talk to the people and go to the bar and talk to the bartender.

1:35:37 Like, that's the experience that this kid is seeing or somebody that really enjoyed this game back then is experiencing. We have played so many RPGs that have expanded on combat and expanded on choice and consequence and immersion that we are really only seeing all of these terrible dungeon designs and this clunky inventory system and this sort of knee-capped battle system. Where I think that's just what we get for being exposed to the modern RPG.

1:36:20 I think Bobby was their target audience. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, that's almost exactly what I was going to say about, like, it being a game for, maybe they were trying to make it a game for Dungeons & Dragons fans, but I think they ended up making a game that was the gateway for people to, like, get into that kind of world. That were trying to get into, like, Dungeons & Dragons and stuff.

1:36:41 And, yeah, I do think in 19, what, 1989, there's a different approach to, like, looking at this game. And I think that, like, the right person really enjoys this game in 1989. Yeah, I totally agree. I agree with that. The right person enjoys this game. I just am worried that the right person wasn't really on the NES. And I imagine that most people who favored this game played it on, like, an Apple II. I do like, I like everybody's responses here because they all check out. I think there's no wrong answer here other than saying me. The game is definitely not right.

1:37:19 But that's also, like, you know, that's a thing, too. You can enjoy systems within a game. I certainly did. Even the little details in this game, right? Like, there's the phases of the moon included in the HUD. And it's, like, I just appreciate that being there. It's, like, it adds – I know that it's, like, not that complicated. And it just, like, tells, you know, like, depending on the cycles of the moon, like, magical portals open up and stuff. But to me, that just adds a lot of mystery and intrigue. And the game has a lot of that going for it. And that was the stuff I really liked about it.

1:37:58 You know, it's funny. It's, like, when you reveal, like, what the game is after the fact, right? So let's pull the curtain here for a minute. And after I play these games, I do an extensive amount of research on these games, too, to make sure that we can give the listeners, you know, the correct info but also, like, a substantial amount of info. And there is a difference between playing this game for five hours, playing this game for 20-plus hours, and then, like, also seeing this game via research by looking at maps and looking at strategy guides and reading old reviews and stuff like that.

1:38:43 It's, like, the idea of a game that has such a tremendous scope while at the same time disappointing on delivery. There's something about that that I couldn't get over as I continued to play and research the game.

1:39:02 It just felt like such a missed opportunity here. I think we're the kings of being in love with ideas that a lot of the games that we've been reviewing have been presenting to us and just being disappointed by the execution of them. I think that that's just sort of – that's just games in general. Right. Yeah, I agree. That feeling of going in the whirlpool and discovering Ambrosia after that weird, vague line, right? That's not helpful at all. You know, it's not helpful. You have no idea what it means. But then when you get there, you're like, oh, wow, this is really cool. And you don't know what could happen in that other world. Like, maybe the rest of the game takes place there. You know? Who knows?

1:39:49 I like that sky's the limit thing. I hate when I actually feel limited by the game because the game is very imaginative. It does offer a lot of unique systems and opportunities. To experience. But then there's all these other things in this game that I don't want to do. I agree. I agree with both of these viewpoints.

1:40:19 Let's talk magic. We really only talked about the undead spell, which is kind of funny because there is a whole magic system. And there's also like what kind of character you are is what kind of magic you get too. Like, you know, the wizard, the cleric, the – who am I forgetting? The alchemist, the ranger have some.

1:40:41 Paladin? No. Okay. Paladin? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. But anyway, yeah. A lot of different characters get magic. And they have different kinds of magic spells that they could have at their disposal. I think the wizard is the only one who has the opportunity to potentially learn everyone else's spells as well as their own. I'm not sure exactly. Wait. I thought the wizard only learned – Only black magic. Intelligence magic. Oh, really? The wizard can't learn like cleric spells? And then the cleric is like the white magic version of the wizard.

1:41:12 Got it. Okay. I don't know. Yeah, because I didn't experience this in my game. I just read it. But okay. That's good to know. So that would be the difference between those two though. White magic, black magic. Got it. And then all of these other magic users are just some variation of – some of them can do both. Some of them can do only one, but not the level of like those pure classes. But they have a bit more like standard attack power.

1:41:45 And yeah, it's – but yeah, the cleric and the wizard are like the pure magic users on either end of those. Oh, right. Sorry. I remember now. Yes, it's magic power and willpower. That's the difference between these guys. For the most part. Yeah. The cleric has the – but I'm saying like the willpower is their version of white magic in this game. I mean, they still draw from MP, right? Yeah, yeah. So there's – yeah, there's intelligence and then wisdom.

1:42:15 I guess like yeah, will would be wisdom and magic would be intelligence. Yeah, and I think like a wisdom-based – like a cleric whose magic is based on wisdom, the higher your wisdom level is, the higher MP you have. But I think if you were to – And higher level spells are available to you. Yeah, yeah. But then if you were to do a wizard and give him higher intelligence, it doesn't raise your MP because he works on intelligence rather than wisdom. Yeah, wisdom on a wizard does nothing.

1:42:46 Yeah. And what do you think of that? Is that like a waste? Is that like designed as a funny throwaway that you should know that? And if you attribute character points to the wizard and wisdom, then like that's just your fault? I mean, yeah, it is. I actually hadn't really thought about the fact that it's a waste. That like he has the ability to get these attributes that don't do anything for him. It's entirely – I didn't notice that. Yeah, it's fully brought over from like tabletop RPGs. Like if – Not so much because like if you have a fighter that has like a wisdom skill, like they still have things that they can do with wisdom.

1:43:29 But yeah, like if you were to give a fighter or barbarian any intelligence or wisdom, that is a throwaway. You're just dumping points because they can't use magic. Yeah. We've done extensive stuff on combat, management, dungeons, exploration. Now it's time for the NPCs and the towns, you know, kind of like where you find out about your questing and what you'll do next if you're lucky enough to decipher what they mean. And, you know, right off the bat, the only thing that – and I should just be able to get over this because it's the limitations of the console itself. But it is kind of interesting how they display the town, right? Like they can't show you the entire screen all at once.

1:44:49 Some of the – some of like the tiles don't generate until you get closer to them. That was a little weird. I really liked that. Yeah, I think – I thought that that was actually like one of the most impressive things about this game because that's your line of sight, right?

1:45:03 Yeah. You only – the black tiles are just things you can't see. So if you're – and it does it pretty accurately. If you're in front of something, you know, like a doorway, you'll see like a wedge from the doorway looking out of the doorway but you can't see directly to the sides of like the walls. It does it on the overall too where you – it covers things that your characters wouldn't be able to see. That's fun, right? But it's like – it's weird in 2D. Like those aren't my eyeballs.

1:45:32 I can see that, you know? I guess. But it's trying to immerse you in like what this – you're that character. So like yeah, you're seeing his perspective but like – you're right. It is an element that they should have probably implemented some things, things that are hiding somewhere or stuff that you can't see around a corner. But the only time that that would happen happens in like the dungeons which are 3D anyways.

1:45:54 But I still was very impressed with the fact that they made it work so well. Like yeah, it would be nice if there was stuff like hiding in the areas you can't see or something. And this is still like a system that is used in like CRPGs today. Like the isometrics – like you will have a line of sight that when you move around things will appear to you. And like that fog of war needs to be sort of cleared.

1:46:19 And I think that while it isn't as well implemented as it could have been like you said, Joe, there are still like hidden things around. Like there's a casino in a town that's like hidden around a corner. Like when you're walking around the castle, there are some places that you sort of have to – you sort of have to explore to find that in any other – if it was just like the screen is just the screen and you see past walls and stuff like that could have sort of spoiled your exploration of it.

1:46:55 Like you just move over a couple pixels and oh, there's that other thing. So I think it's not a perfect implementation of it, but I think that it did add to the experience of the game.

1:47:08 Yeah, that's right. I forgot about stuff like that. And I know we're talking about the towns right now, but even on the overworld map, that line of sight thing like mountains block towns. You have to go around the mountains to then see like what's over there and stuff. Yeah, it did make it so you can't just know exactly where to go just by looking at like the screen. You have to actually go where your character would have to go in order to see these things. And I think that makes sense. Like I do like the line of sight thing and I actually didn't know that that's something that's still implemented in CRPGs.

1:47:38 It's kind of – I'd like to try it on a new isometric style game because to me it was just disorienting being in – Yeah, when it's just these blocks. Being like top down. Yeah, exactly. Like the fact that it's not – there's not enough graphics to like convey that well and it looks more like a loading error to me. I'm glad you guys appreciated it, you know. But to me it looked more like, you know, that feature in Super Mario Brothers 3 where like you can see the first – you can see the last line of pixels behind you as well. You know, it's like, okay, there has to – they have to do that. Oh, it definitely fell into that too. Yeah. But yeah.

1:48:19 Yeah, I thought the same thing when I first saw it. My gripe is not with the towns themselves, I want to be clear. I actually thought the towns were pretty fun to explore and just like wander around because that was – that was the real world building and storytelling, right? Like it wasn't – it wasn't really happening on the overworld. It was happening in these towns. And like Sean mentioned, that hidden casino and stuff like that, like that builds some character into a game that was needing it. So I appreciate all that stuff. I just couldn't get over the – The presentation of it. The disparity of like, yeah, of like, okay, I have eyes. They have eyes. Our eyes are not looking at the same thing. So why am I – why am I limited? I think that the towns themselves had a good amount of character. Like there's one that's basically a forest and it doesn't look like the rest of them.

1:49:15 The individual NPCs definitely do sort of like – there are many copies of them in each town. Like I kept coming across this little girl that kept telling her – that kept telling me not to forget about her, which I thought was kind of creepy. But other than that, I think this is pretty robust for this age.

1:49:40 I'll say that I do agree that the towns – like there were a couple of unique ones with like – yeah, there was the forest town. That was kind of cool. But as far as like the – I don't know, the functionality of the towns, not all of them, but a lot of them felt not different than any of the other towns. You know what I mean? Like they felt like – Yeah, visually. It didn't mean too much to get to a new town. Yeah. Like no, visually and functionally. Like I go into a town and I'd be like, oh, great. I'm in a new town. I can buy mostly the same things in most of the towns. There are some exceptions. And I can rest up. But there was not like – I don't know.

1:50:23 I like to equate things to Pokemon because it's for like most people – most people that's like a common ground for a lot of people. So like in Pokemon, I'll be like, okay, I need to go to the move deleter. So like that's Blackthorn City. And I know Blackthorn City because it's this. But like, okay, now I got to get this item and I got to go to this lavender town, which is like a ghost town. There's all these ghost references and all this other stuff.

1:50:46 Whereas this just felt like, okay, so there's that town to the west and it's got a name and it's a town and it does all the things that the town does. And there's a town in the south and it's got a name. That's true. And it does all the things that towns do. And there were like one or two exceptions. There was like Dawn, which you have to use the moon gate to get to it. You can get more really powerful weapons.

1:51:01 And yeah, there was the forest town. But for the most part, I was always like, okay, I just need to get to a town. I got to rest up. I got to get to a town. Like it's really the only thing I ever used towns for. Yeah, I agree. But I would say that like while they aren't as unique as like a lavender town or like just towns in RPGs that have. Yeah, even like Final Fantasy.

1:51:25 Yeah, like towns that have like unique landmarks. Like it does not have that. But they do have different configurations of like what is available. Like some places don't have a weapon slash armor shop. Some places don't have a bar. Some places don't have a grocer. So like depending on what you need, you do still need to think about like which town is the nearest that can accommodate you.

1:51:53 Because they're like the nearest one may not have what you need. They'll always have an in. But other than that, I think that it's sort of a random grab bag of what's available. Yeah. In what world does the town not have a grocer? I'm not saying that that is realistic. I know. I'm just saying like that's another – that's a problem though, right? Like I get like, you know, oh, these guys only sell this kind of armor and if you want this armor, you should go to this town. Like fine with that. That all checks out for me.

1:52:25 But, you know, this is the kind of game where I was honestly only expecting one town and that's like that's the challenge, right? Like you always have to go back to the first town. Like you could imagine something like that happening. I'm glad they didn't do that. But, you know, there is something strange about necessary things to press on and not having those available to you.

1:52:46 Yeah. And I will say that because of my eventual reliance on a walkthrough that I probably did miss out on whether or not there was a good like – I don't know. But you guys tell me was there a good like level of using NPCs to kind of get – gather data and figure out what to do next or – the couple times I would talk to random NPCs, I would get like very little to no information. But then I kind of stopped doing that. I'd say that if you're using a walkthrough, like a lot of the stuff that comes – that's related to like digging up – like I forget what the thing – the horn or like the sword. Like if you were to then talk to a bunch of NPCs, you'll get hints on like how to do that.

1:53:37 Like a lot of them do give like – compared to other games, relatively valuable hints. But if you're using a walkthrough, you're probably not going to run into that. Right. Well, I mean I can't even imagine a hint that would come up in one of those however many character text boxes that gives me any information that would help me get like that – the mystic armor, which is on like a random island in a random unmarked spot that you have to know. Yeah, I'm not saying that it's very specific.

1:54:08 It's the mystery of it though. It's the – you know, it's some of its flavor text.

1:54:21 It's the mystery of it. Yeah, right, yeah. Where this thing exactly is. That's why I feel like there's a happy medium. Plus, there's a level of like – I think my expectations also stem a little bit from like more – not even modern games, but like later games than on the NES where it's like, oh, there's like conversations that – there's actually a story being told and I can figure it out based on the story. I can figure out where to like guess, where to start guessing, like educated guesses based on the story.

1:55:06 Rather than when it's here where it's just like a vague hint that like you would take hours and hours of just guesswork to figure out what they're talking about. I don't – and again, I don't even know if that's how it was. That's just how I was imagining it because most of the people I spoke to were like, welcome to Montour West. Or like, don't forget about me. Or like, go to Ambrosia. And I'm like, what? I didn't even know that Mondain died.

1:55:31 Did you guys go to the hospitals to give blood to get gold? I tried once and party members were too close to death to be any use. So I just decided not to. Yeah, I think you have to be pretty close to full health if not full health to like really use the system. But what was I going to say? That's like a good way to get some gold because, you know, your blood. Like in real life, stuff's valuable.

1:56:03 So sell your blood. Like this game could just be you living in a town. Never really like, you know, just trying to like make days meet at the inn. You're just like, okay, I don't have a place to stay. I got to sleep at the inn. I'm going to go fight some skeletons to get enough gold to then sleep at the inn for the day. And oh, shit, I didn't fight enough skeletons today. I got to go give some blood.

1:56:26 That's typical fantasy. Also, there's pretty advanced doctors for like they're doing blood transfusions or like. They just want the blood. Yeah, I guess so. Well, maybe. Yeah, that's true. Maybe there's some spell that they use it for. Yeah, maybe it's like Exodus hates blood. You're just trying to get away. You know, like they're like, oh, we're going to make circles around the whole town with your blood. Exodus, by the way, not the character on the box art. Not that devil Satan like character. Exodus is a giant.

1:56:57 Well, it's actually I was going to say machine, but they describe it in the manual as neither human or machine. So I thought it was the island. I thought the island was Exodus. Right. I guess it's just like it's an ominous thing. Like it's like you can't really describe it. Right. Is it the island or is it like the spirit? Within the island. The presence. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. I guess, you know, I read the I read the manual once and then just play the game.

1:57:24 So, well, Exodus is the creation of Minax and Mundane. I think one and two. Yeah. Ultima one and two, which is that's also really cool. Like all of a sudden, that's some pretty cool stuff for a game I've been ragging on. Like, you know, the idea that it's not a man or a machine. It's it's a presence and that it was created by and it was created by the villains of the previous two. But again, that's our words. That's not the game. I don't know if it's a presence.

1:57:53 Yeah. Is it just like a place? I thought it was. I like the idea that like I like the idea that like I'm going to start like dramatizing things that I'm talking about. I'm talking about my water bottle. I'll tell someone like it's neither human nor machine. Like it's just like anything that's not human or machine. It's just like the, you know, the grass is not human nor machine. That's right. Exodus was a water bottle. I forgot about that. Is a water bottle technically a simple machine? Like it's a container. Nah, it's just a thing. I don't think so. Yeah.

1:58:22 I mean, it's screwed. There's a lid that screws on. That's kind of. The bottle itself. I don't know who beat the I don't know who beat the game here, but it's important to mention that Exodus does not like challenge you to a fight. You to defeat him. You have to like solve a bunch of puzzles that he's set up for you.

1:58:40 I didn't do it, but that sounds pretty fun and stupid. Like the end of a game where like the whole thing was you grinding combat and now it's like solve a bunch of puzzles if you want to beat me. It's like. It's really not even solve the puzzle. It's like just write down what the time Lord said to you and then do that. And then you walk out and I think the like the island falls into the sea. We're spoiling the game. And then it cuts to credits.

1:59:10 The old Banjo-Kazooie fairy godmother route. Got it. No idea what that means. Classically. Right before Exodus, you also have to fight the floor. The floor? Yeah. It's just. The floor is lava?

1:59:25 I assume that there's actually like characters there that just are the exact same sprite as the repeated tile of the floor. Is that what happened? Is that what that is? I'm confused. Yeah. There's like a battle where it looks like nothing's there, but there's a bunch of enemies you can't see because they are the floor. Wow. I did not get to this part. I didn't either. But I saw that. Now, Joe, I like your explanation, but I don't think it's true. I think you are quite literally fighting the floor from what I understand of the Ultima wiki.

1:59:55 Well, my explanation was more of what I thought was like technically what the game was doing. Oh, gotcha. That's probably happening. There are enemies that are like just the same tile as the floor. Yeah. Because you do have to fight specific spots. You can't just like be like, get on your hands and knees and strike this thing. Are we sure it's not ghosts? Like maybe it's just invisible things? It's called floor.

2:00:15 The wiki was pretty clear. All right, whatever. It's also I watched somebody beat it and I think like the name of the enemy. Did the enemies have names? I can't remember. But for some reason I knew it was floor also. Yeah, they had names. I would like to see like this campaign actually ran as like a D&D module where the DM has to say like how – describe how you're attacking the floor and how the floor is attacking you.

2:00:43 I don't know. Yeah. I mean I think it's pretty funny because now you're making me guess like was it the floor or was it invisible enemies? Like theoretically like there is no wrong answer, right? I love how much we've been stuck on this floor thing. Yeah. It kind of sounds like you're like slowly losing your mind as you're – Well, it's just like who thinks the floor is a good final boss? I know. Well, second, you know, the penultimate boss. But like I don't know. I never expect the floor but I guess that's no different than that hand in Legend of Zelda. That will grab you.

2:01:17 If you're handmaster or whatever and they're not looking at you. It's bizarre. But it's this giant hand that just comes down from the ceiling. It's crazy creepy. But, you know, that's also like who thought of that? I think hand works better than floor.

2:01:31 Okay. Yeah. Maybe. The floor is Exodus. You are the floor. You've been the floor the whole time. One last thing I want to explain is that we keep referencing this exploit that apparently we all used to make the game a lot easier. And I feel like maybe we should just let the listeners know exactly what that was to kind of get a better handle. So – No, that's the mystery. We're the NPCs in this game. Right, right. Well, the NPCs don't talk about the exploit. You know, that's – It would be funny if they did though.

2:02:00 But basically you can't get your pirate ship. You can't steal a pirate ship I think until level five. Yes. You're level five. Correct. But once you get past level two, from that point on every time you go up levels you're going to get harder and harder enemies. And that's when the game gets like really, really difficult. So what the exploit is and why I had so many party members but also – it wasn't the only reason I had so many party members. But you make like a sacrificial party.

2:02:29 You get enough money and experience to level them up to level five. Go get your pirate ship. And then as soon as you have the pirate ship, go save. Restart the game. And I don't know if you have to delete those characters. I did but you might not even have to. But I delete those characters and get new fresh level one characters.

2:02:53 All the enemies on the screen go back to being like level one. And no enemies will appear in the water which the game intends for you to run the enemies in the water. Because by the time you can get the ship enemies, you're at a high enough level where enemies appear in the water. So the game stays very easy but you have access to – not very easy but the game stays easy and you have access to everywhere in the game. Definitely not the way it was intended but I honestly can't imagine enjoying playing it the way it was intended.

2:03:18 It also adds a lot more grinding than we ever needed to but that's neither here nor there. Well, you mean if we had not done the exploits? Well, I think it balances out with like not running into those other creatures and having the rest of the game be easier. But it's still like – it's more grinding before you can do your thing. You know what I mean? Sure.

2:03:43 Yeah. But – so for one – I didn't test this to see how true it was but from what I was reading in the guide that gave me the idea for this exploit, it was saying that like trust me, it takes way less time to max out your level when you're at level one and fighting low level enemies than fighting high level enemies that have higher experience rewards but take way longer than like – Ah, I see. Than it would take.

2:04:05 So they were – you know, that and like I think there was one other source that said like it's going to take you way longer to play this game if you do it the right way. Yeah, I think all speedruns take advantage of that too and it's just something – it's funny because like you saying that we didn't talk about it, Joe, is just – it's like one of those things where we just assumed. Yeah, it's like that's the game. The other way is the weird way to play the game. Yeah, exactly. Like that's the way to play the game but also like do you want people to know the exploit?

2:04:36 Should they decide that on their own? Like there's so many things around this but it's like I can't – I can't think of any other example like this because it's not really – it's not really like a cheat code and it's not really like a mechanic that was intended. It's – it's – you know, it's not quite like the warp zone worlds in Super Mario Brothers where you're like, oh, don't tell people about that. They have to discover that on their own. Like I don't know how to feel about the exploit system other than knowing that like all three of us without talking to each other felt it necessary to use it.

2:05:13 Right, right. You know, I think it's just like one of those things everybody decides at some point while they're playing this game like, you know, maybe I want to do this instead. Like maybe I want to find a way to play this game a little bit easier. Right. And there are exploits in other games that, you know, that ruin the challenge of the game. In this game, I think the exploit – personally, I think the exploit makes it a better game. The І

2:06:11 So, you know, there are nine numbered Ultima games. We technically played the third one, but they struck the three out of it. And I say nine because seven was split into two parts. It was Ultima 7 Part 1 and Ultima 7 Part 2, so that's technically just, like, the same game, but we'll just say nine. The last of these games was released in 1999. Wow. That's pretty crazy. It's been, like, an absence of Ultima for two decades now. Yeah, I mean, I know that, like, Ultima is, like, one of those founding RPG series, like, it spawned

2:06:53 genres. Like, Ultima Underworld pretty much created, like, what would become, like, the first person RPG and, like, the immersive sim. And then you got Ultima Online, which was... Was it the first MMO? I don't quite remember. No, I think that... Wasn't that EverQuest? Maybe it was EverQuest. I'm not sure. But, um... It has a legacy, but it's crazy that... I had no idea that there were no newer ones, or at least in this century. Well, since you brought up Ultima Online, I want to share two really funny stories that... You know, because it's Ultima. It's an Ultima episode. Might as well.

2:07:32 Online games, MMOs, you know, they have a fandom behind them, and there's a lot of different rules, and Ultima, like, to pride itself on the systems it creates and just sticking to those systems. So, long before they invited players into the game, they were creating this world that, like, had a vegetation system. Oh, I know this story. And, like, animals. Yeah. You know? And the creators of the games had no idea that the player base would just kill everything. Destroy the ecosystem. You know, whether it was, like... Right, exactly. Just, like, I want to kill all the bears whether they attack me or not. And in doing so, by killing, like,

2:08:14 anything, you know, that happened to Rome, they destroyed the vegetation system in the game. And therefore, it was like, okay, now we actually can't have this system because these are necessary things that need to survive. So, after, like, trying to, like, combat it by, like, fixing spawn points and doing stuff like that, eventually they just had to just scrape the whole system and start a new one that just was, like, these things will just spawn

2:08:42 regardless of anything. You know? Like, they don't need to reproduce. They don't need to have these things living around them. They'll just happen. So, I thought that was pretty funny. I love it. Because, like, the game never needed that. But it was... Right. I love when games have these systems for very tertiary reasons. But I guess that also explains why we can't have nice things. And it's relevant to Ultima 3. You know? It's like, there's so many things in this game that's like, I'm not a fan of it, but, hey, it's there. And they chose to include those things as, like,

2:09:15 you know, systems that somebody could use to potentially exploit or to immerse themselves further. There's a lot of, like, optionality in playing both Ultima 3 and MMOs. So, I see the parallel. Now, Lord British, okay, who is the creator of Ultima's, that's his in-game alter ego, he appeared in Ultima Online and was killed during an in-game beta test on August 9th, 1997.

2:09:49 They were doing a population stress test on the server, and a player character, now known as Reigns, cast the Firefield spell, killing Lord British, and was, like, banned. I'm just amazed that they didn't make him invincible. Apparently, there was an exploit because of the beta test that, like, he, for a moment, was not invincible. Oh, my God, that's, like, really, like, taken down, like, a mythical god-like person. Like, for one moment, every beta test, he's not invincible.

2:10:22 Right, right, and Lord British died on that day in Ultima Online, August 9th, 1997. Another fun story. We could talk about Ultima all day, sequels and spinoffs, but we got two other Ultima games to play through, four and five. At least four, actually. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure five came to the west. But we'll play them, regardless, and who knows? Maybe Ultima 4 fixes everything we talked about.

2:10:49 There is one thing I forgot to do, though. It's a very important thing. It's something we do every episode, and we're gonna have to do it again today. We are gonna have to decide if Ultima Exodus for the Nintendo Entertainment System is on the Essential Games list.

2:11:05 Sean, you are up first. Please give your vote for the Essential Games list. I've basically said my piece on most of my opinions on this game, but the bottom line is that this is another one of those great collections of ideas that, while it very well may have been amazing in 1989,

2:11:32 and I love it for a lot of different systems and cool little things, it, right now, is just a frustration to play, and I was really kind of hating myself near the end of my playthrough. I didn't finish. But I can't take away from the things that it did. But I can also not put this on the Essential Games list. I can't, in good faith, knowing the time sink of this game and the value that is inside of it. You know, the essence of what this game really is. I can't recommend this to anybody. Not even on, like, the, like, if you're interested level. Like, there are so many RPGs. You'll find something other than Ultimate Exodus. I don't know

2:12:23 what it is about this game, but I'm exhausted. Not that the episode is so long. I'm exhausted about how much I had to say about this game, how much I had to play this game, how much I had to look into this game. This was a task that I wouldn't put on anybody else, and so I can't recommend this game to anybody. It is not on my Essential Games list. You're a martyr. Joe? Alright, this might be a little bit of a surprising statement, but I did have fun. I did have quite a bit of fun playing this game. And I, when I first started, I'll say, when I first started this game, my initial thought was like, oh my god, like, this has got to be an Essential Game once I play more of it. Obviously, I did quite a 180 on that thought as I played more.

2:13:09 But, just to, I, I think that I'm doing with this sort of the opposite of what I do with shmups a lot. A lot of times I'll say about a shmup, like, hey, this game is just not in the genre that I like, but I get why other people like it. And I think, to be fair, I have to do that with this game too, where it's like, this game is in the genre I like, and I'm really excited about it. To finally get to play like, an RPG proper on the NES,

2:13:36 kind of, like, I had to kind of stop and look at, examine that, and be like, how much of that is me just being, like, pumped to finally be able to play this, and how much, how much of it is, like, actually, like, good or actually bad. So, I actually, I made a little, a little pros and cons list, and sorry for being a little long-winded, I know we're on a long episode here, but here, here's what I ended up with my pros and cons list.

2:14:00 Pro, there's a good sense of exploration that we don't see in a ton of games yet on the NES. But here's three cons. The different towns and locations don't mean too much because they're just not different enough most of the time. There's only one continent that's very deceiving at first, it looks like a huge world, but the more you explore, you realize it's a very small world that loops a lot.

2:14:22 And three, you absolutely, in my opinion, need a guide. So, those three cons already more than negate the pro. Okay, the next pro is there's a variety of strategies and techniques that you can use in the battles. Which is true, there's a lot. The next con is that most of the battles are almost all grinding. There's a lot of luck, there's no boss battles, there's almost no time to use those strategies. Again, the con negates the pro.

2:14:49 Third pro, the 3D mazes were, in my opinion, the best that we've had on the NES as far as orientation and feeling like you know where you're going and you can actually feel like you're going. But for some reason, they made this choice that all these early NES games seem to make where they just make things completely based on random guess and check. Completely negating the fact that there are mazes at all because you just got to guess. Finally, my last pro here is that there's a good level up system that's unique. You gain experience in a different way than you would in a... You gain experience but you level up when you want to when you go to the king or whatever.

2:15:28 You visit shrines to increase your attributes which is like a little journey in and of itself. But the game feels like it's more fun to use an exploit that avoids using those level ups for most of the game. It would take so much longer to actually actually play it the way it wants. And for those reasons, I mean, clearly this game should not be on the Essential Games list. I will say though that I would say if you're interested in this kind of thing, you might like it. You might like exploring around and kind of seeing this if you're an RPG fan.

2:16:05 But yeah, not Essential. Wow. Joe, I can't believe you're going to subject people to playing this game. I just think I enjoyed it. I really did enjoy it. I think there are other people out there that might look like that. I'm only teasing anyway. No, no, no. It's like everybody, like you were saying with the shmup thing too. It's like there are some people who probably think that if it's a shmup I automatically like it. You know, we have these things and quirks about us. I can understand what you're saying but I have to give that recommendation of like just maybe find some other RPG. There's got to be something else out there that just released on Steam a couple weeks ago that you can play instead.

2:16:42 Yeah, that was another thing I thought a lot about too. There's so many RPGs. There's really no reason to go back to this one unless you're interested in like what it was like a weird attempt to try like an early RPG. Like that's what makes it makes it interesting and it's fun to create your characters and all that stuff. Well, gentlemen, it was a great episode. It's certainly one of our longest ever.

2:17:05 I can't guarantee that next week's episode which is Dance Aerobics will be any longer. It might be three to four hours. I think we could we could find some material. Yeah. Well, we'll see. I mean, well, because that's with the power pad also, right? Like this game? Yeah. I played this with the power pad. Any NES game can be played with the power pad. Yeah. I didn't know that. Anyway. Yeah. A lot of crazy things.

2:17:36 But the funny thing about Dance Aerobics, of course, is that it takes place in the Ultimate Universe. So it's like you have, you know, like right next to Ambrosia is Dance Aerobics. Right. Only when the moon is full. When both moons are full. Right, right. Oh, yeah. That's the secret unlock in this game. You beat Ultimate Exodus, you unlock Dance Aerobics. Right. If you're still listening. This podcast is basically every time we beat a game, we unlock the next game that came out. That's true. So hopefully one of us beat it or else we're not going to unlock Dance Aerobics. All right. If you're still listening, wow, thank you so much. We really like the three. Yeah, you really like the three of us.

2:18:18 Although a couple people have said they don't like the Bills. I don't know how that's possible. I don't know how you can like NostalgiaCast and not the Bills. They kind of go hand in hand. Well, I don't know. We are a sponsor.

2:18:32 You know, I'm not a, I don't know like a ton about the NFL, but the one thing that I do know that everybody should remember is that John Elway is not the owner of the Denver Broncos. I'm specifically talking to you, Sean. I, oh, I think I can remember that. Please don't forget that. I think I can remember that. yeah. Because like, yeah, I just want to make sure you don't ever like I mean, I do know that. I mean, I've known that for a long time. Right, good. Yeah. If you want to find more Nostalgia, just check out the Twitter page at NostalgiaCast. We're posting things every Monday to Friday. We do not usually post on Saturdays and Sundays because we respect your weekend and we want you to go outside and have a great time. Or inside. Wear a mask.

2:19:15 I'm not the boss of you. Yeah, wear a mask. Inside and outside. And while you sleep at night. Whatever you want. Maybe that mask is over your eyes though instead of over your mouth. You know, like, we're not the boss of you. You're actually the boss of us. So tweet at NostalgiaCast and just start making like high level executive decisions about what the show should be and what we should be doing. I think we're at that point now where we can take the honest feedback that we've been seeking. So. Well, let's just do Twitch runs

2:19:43 NostalgiaCast. Yeah, exactly. Twitch runs NostalgiaCast. That's how I was doing it. I'm Mike Esposito. You can find me at Esposito Film on Twitter. You're not the boss of me. So don't tweet me and tell me things about myself. I don't need to hear them. At NostalgiaCast is where you direct all feedback to the show. For me, you can usually find nothing. I don't even know why I give out my Twitter handle and I tweet once a month. All right. Exodus.

2:20:24 waktu a month.